"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain
Hi, new to the thread. Been reading these posts and see the same "conversations" I have seen other places....ballistics, gelatin, cost, size, speed, etc. Much of the information these conversations are based on are old (ie. no recent updates), static (chronographs, etc), and superficial. I have personally spoken with more than one police officer regarding a subject hit by the 5.7 X28mm. There were no doubts. One exclaimed that the M.E. asked him "What did you shoot him with..?" in surprise of the damage and differences from other witnessed wound cavities. Does this mean it's an absolute stopper....no. But several gents have survived multiple gunshots by .357, .45acp, etc. as well. Does this mean they are not? No. The difficulty with the 5.7 is real world stats. Not enough people have been shot by them, especially the pistol. Many agencies have moved up to the .40, yet some still swear by the 9mm. "Evidence" abounds to surround both arguments. Many administrators do not allow a .45ACP or hollowpoint ammo because of reported, erroneous conclusions....many made by trainers.
Regarding gelatin.....I wouldn't hang my hat on any of that data. More than one round has performed poor with gelatin only to later due quite well in living tissue. If you're shooting someone with an interior temperature consistent with gelatin, they're already dead. Let me know when 98 degree gelatin comes out.
Comparisons to .22mag is also only through "measurable" data. Although similar in numeric performance, the bullets are designed differently both physically and in which they are scheduled to react ballistically.
More people are killed with smaller calibers than any other. Small calibers do work, depending on the circumstance. The number one consideration for defense is shot placement. Period. A 5.7 to the heart will out due a .45acp to the arm just about every time. If the 5.7 allows you to place multiple, rapid shots on target; why not use it? If you are able to do the same with a 45ACP, that is different you easily have a choice and most likely would choose the larger round. If you can't, I wouldn't rule out the 5.7. Many LEO's stay with 9mm for this very reason....they hit better with it.
The FN should not be elevated to "THE" firearm when comparing. It is "A" firearm, with several shooter/ballistic/design benefits. It also has unknowns and negatives much like many other firearms. I would not discount the Tac Teams, foreign or domestic, that have chosen to use it. They generally do not use crap firearms of any sort. If the FN was the price of a Glock, and the ammo the same, these conversations wouldn't take place. They would be all over, and there would be plenty of real life data to look back on. Likewise, if a Glock was the price of an FN, they wouldn't have such a large share of the market, regardless of performance.
Our department had one for T&E and we found it accurate, dependable, simple, and had "0" failures of any kind. I would say a weapon that is easy to shoot (fast and accurate), and dependable should definitely be in consideration. I wouldn't necessarily pick a .380 over my .45ACP, but I wouldn't want to be shot by a .380 either!
Place a 5.7 in the chest or the pumpkin, and I would say doubts would subside quickly. I wouldn't worry about lethality, performance, reliability, etc. This one has it. Personal preferences should be more of a factor here. As an LEO/SWAT'er that carries all the time, I have no issue with the FN. I'd carry it in a heartbeat and feel confident, even without the AP rounds.
Sorry for the length on my $.02
Hey, that was a great post.
im pretty sure i`ll pass on this 5.7 gun.ive shot it a few times,a friend has one.for the price i would go ahead and get a HK 2000.
i think if the length of the FN was an inch and a half shorter it would be a lot more popular.at least with me it would.
Where would one buy the absolute least expensive 5.7 pistol? And I wonder how cheap that would be? My recollection of advertisements I have see puts it at about $750 ish at best.
My shop has one for $930. Gander Mountain wants over $1000 for it so they can rip people off.
I have seen them around $809 or so at Houston gun shows.
I really, really want one but I'm just not yet ready to shell out $800 + for it.
I just got back from a gun show here in Tyler and the cheapest I found one for was 779. When ever I shop on Bud's I add $50 to their price for shipping and FFL paperwork. Bud's had the best prices a while back but it seems they are getting more expensive lately.
Yea, I paid the $25 for shipping and the $25 for the FFL fee - but there was no sales tax. So, I still came out ahead.
Thanks for the updates. I guess it's $800 + for now.
Well, it is my understanding that whole sale is $756.
One wholesaler has it listed today for $836.85. I know that they have gone up recently, so that may not be too far above average wholesale now.
we make them here in Belgium, and we are not allout to shoot them, strickly military and police forces
Now that you've had it for a while what do you think about it? You've probably got some good range time in by now. Give us a report and some pictures.
yes the time honored tradition of arguing over a caliber's usefulness/effectiveness. fact is you would not want to be shot with any of them. if someone breaks into your home and you put two or three in them of any caliber they will not be coming back for more. and as far as "justifying" the purchase. not many of us will ever have a life or death situation that "justifies" our firearms. sometimes they are just really sweet to shoot and own.
Thus, ammunition can be suitable for humans but not animals. How many deer wear a bulletproof vest? How many soldiers do? The 5.7 round is more effective through body armor than most other handgun rounds by sacrificing everything for penetration, but because it relies so highly on penetration it is ballistically inferior in practically every other respect to other rounds which balance penetration and permanent cavity at the expense of armor penetration, and therefore only of greater overall utility in an environment where your adversary is likely to be armored. It's a wartime round, not a personal defense or hunting round.
So, you're both right. The Five-seveN with AP cartridges beats the 9mm and even the .45 on the battlefield, however as AP cartridges are not available stateside it is inferior to both calibers on the street as a police or civilian sidearm.
P.S. - A NATO CRISAT target is not all that. NIJ Standard IV, which is issued to FBI and SWAT counterterrorism tac teams, is far better; it'll protect against a 30-06 armor-piercing round travelling up to 2900fps. That's a bullet with the same penetrating tip, about 7x the mass, and at least 500fps more velocity. A CRISAT target is roughly Standard IIIA, which is designed to stop a non-AP handgun round up to 240 grains at 1400fps (which is up to and including .44 Magnum). Designing an armor-piercing bullet that will defeat a vest not designed to defend against AP is rather pointless; show me a bullet that defeats a vest designed to stop other AP rounds and I'll be impressed.
If you purchase a five seven between 12-1-2007 & 3-31-2008 FN will send you the first 200 rounds free! Just print the form off their website, complete it & attach bill of sale & a copy of your BATFE form 4473 & fax or mail it to them. Saves you about $90! I don't see any other manufacturers offering the first 200 rounds for free. January 1st did bring a price increase but some dealers will sell it at the old prices. I've seen them range from $850 to $1275! There have been a few used ones on forums for around $750 with extra's. I paid $885 for mine shipped off Gunbroker. Ammo is $18-$20 but $24 + tax in local retailers. Can't shoot it indoors at my club so waiting for the weather to break!