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  1. #1
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
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    NYC Empire State Building Shooting.....

    yesterday 11 people shot , 2 killed outside the empire state building... today we find out that the 9 wounded were all hit by NYC cops who fired a total of 16 rounds with 10 hitting the bad guy....

    so we now know that the cops , regardless of how they were trained, did not practice shot placement but used the "spray and pray" meathod.... we also know that the cops had no thought to what was behind their bad guy...

    so i wonder where bloombergs comments are? perhaps all the money he spent investigating gun show sales in arizona should have gone into training his police force ...

    NYPD: Empire State victims hit by police gunfire - Yahoo! News

  2. #2
    berettabone is offline Banned
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    Hopefully, the people or families injured in this, will sue the pants off the City of NY, and name Bloomberg as part of the lawsuit. No knock on LEO'S, but I know that half of them couldn't hit poop with a handfull of rice..........

  3. #3
    ponzer04's Avatar
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    that is just sad

  4. #4
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Bloomberg's attitude must be very similar to Pelosi's:
    It's good that no civilians were carrying guns, because if there had been, there would've been a crossfire, and that would've caused a bloodbath.
    (Yes, folks, that's a paraphrase of Pelosi's real, public comments subsequent to the Colorado movie massacre!)

    But...wait a minute...there was a crossfire, and it did cause a bloodbath.
    But it was a police crossfire, and a police-created bloodbath. So I guess that's OK. Right?

    Huh?

  5. #5
    denner's Avatar
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    I watched the actual shooting and w/ all fairness the two officers had literally split seconds to fire. As they were approaching the suspect at about 15 feet or so he reached into his bag and immediately pointed his .45 directly at the officers w/ the officers literally having no time to react, the one officer didn't even have time to get a two hand hold on his firearm before firing.

  6. #6
    usmcj's Avatar
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    Another example of firearms proficiency, or the lack thereof, as demonstrated by those enabled to protect others.

  7. #7
    wazmo is offline Junior Member
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    I'm not a cop and I've never served in the military (my time was just post Vietnam and to be honest about it, was probably too chicken to join my friends joining up in those days...but, anyway, all patriotic non-service-for-country remorse aside...) So, I don't know what it's like to be shot at. Yet, I have no pretenses about the seriousness of it all. Because of that, I don't want to judge those cops too harshly. I wasn't there in their shoes.

    There is something I want to mention, though. I've been in several conversations with LEOs at one point or another who will admit that training and gun skill is, on average, sub-par among the average police department. There are exceptions, of course, but I think the average citizen would be shocked by the level of skill that their lives are depending on. Maybe it's because I'm in a smallish town type of area, as opposed to a larger metropolis (with bigger budgets). I don't know.

    Earlier this year, my gun club graciously lent one of the neighboring towns our range for practice. Their regular range had been getting some maintenance or something.

    Within the course of a week, our range was horribly shot up, with shot trails in the grass, multiple bullet holes all over the place, including upwards of 30 feet up into the trees (I'm not kidding) and a local neighbor placing a formal complaint with the town because apparently a round landed nearby where he was standing. We're still trying to figure that one out because the range was deemed to be safe from that kind of possibility and for that to have happened, the shooter would have had to do something absolutely stupid.

    That police department (town name withheld), along with all other police departments are forever banned from using our range.

    I would be interested in hearing from any LEOs on this site about this, though.

  8. #8
    usmcj's Avatar
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    I'm on the board of directors for one of the largest private gun clubs in Indiana, and likely surrounding States. Annually, we provide 5 different law enforcement agencies with range time to train their officers over a week's time. Several of us have trained with them on many occasions, and I'd venture a guess that those guys and gals are quite proficient in the use of their service weapons. I'm glad that most officers don't ever have to use their firearms, but if the time comes to do so, they need to be proficient.
    About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000198 despite American citizens using guns to prevent crimes almost 2,500,000 times every year....
    Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws, C. Cramer, and D. Kopel, Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994

  9. #9
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by denner View Post
    I watched the actual shooting and w/ all fairness the two officers had literally split seconds to fire. As they were approaching the suspect at about 15 feet or so he reached into his bag and immediately pointed his .45 directly at the officers w/ the officers literally having no time to react, the one officer didn't even have time to get a two hand hold on his firearm before firing.
    while watching the same video you did i noticed that the police, while approaching a murder suspect, were not aproaching with "guns at the ready" .... giving the suspect time to draw and leaving themselves very little reaction time.... they should have been ready, sight on target and saved some ammo.

    this is just the latest example of poorly trained police.... a decorated navy rescue diver was shot in her own florida backyard by a sheriff deputy who was startled by her as she came out to investigate a noise in her yard.

    thats just 2 incidents this week.

    the nyc shooting was the real eye catcher for the reasons stated in my opening post, the number of innocent victims and bloombergs political stance on guns.

    so now who do we call if we feel unsafe when we see a cop with a gun?

  10. #10
    gunsmith is offline Junior Member
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    Any shooter knows to get close ...... these cops started yelling 15 feet away. You either get close for a good shot or a taser.

  11. #11
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    When situations like this arise, time is of the essence. You don’t have time to think. You have to fall back on your training, practice, and basic instincts. Empty what you’re carrying and deal with the consequences later. The following are classic examples of men that do that every day. (Sarcasm intended)

    State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman: “Our thoughts and prayers are with the innocent victims of today’s tragic shootings and their families. For those of us in government, and in law enforcement, the news of yet another mass shooting so close on the heels of the massacres at the Sikh temple in Wisconsin, and in Aurora, Colorado, should make it crystal clear that our current laws have failed to protect the public from gun violence. We must redouble our efforts to protect public safety so that New Yorkers don’t have to live in fear of the next deadly attack.”

    Rep. Charlie Rangel: "I am shaken by the news that a man randomly shot at innocent people at the Empire State Building, especially at an hour when many New Yorkers are starting their workday and hundreds of tourists are visiting. My thoughts and prayers are with the innocent victims and the families and friends who lost their loved ones. I hope that those who are wounded will heal quickly and recover from the psychological harm that they endured. This year, our nation has been plagued by frequent and senseless gun violence that has taken the lives of so many people across the country. These arbitrary shootings are acts of terrorism that are paralyzing our communities. We must unite to focus our policies on enacting stricter gun control laws that will prevent potentially harmful individuals from accessing such deadly weapons. It is the only way to make certain that our communities safer."

    Rep. Bob Turner: “My heart goes out to the victims’ families of today’s shooting outside the Empire State Building. I want to commend the quick thinking and resolve of New Yorkers and the first responders who acted quickly, saving countless lives.”

    Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver: "I am deeply saddened by the tragic events that unfolded this morning near the Empire State Building. On behalf of the Assembly, I offer our condolences and our prayers for the victims of this tragedy and for their families. There have been far too many victims of gun violence across the country, and today's incident points to the need for sensible gun laws that ensure the safety and security of all."

    State Sen. Michael Gianaris: “My prayers go out for the victims of this morning’s horrific incident caused by yet another act of senseless gun violence. It is long past time to fix our gun laws to prevent future tragedies from occurring. To the victims’ families, stay strong and know our hearts are with you.”

    State Sen. Jose Peralta: "I extend my condolences to the victim's family and friends. For the wounded, I hope for a prompt and full recovery from their injuries. The tragedy is yet another horrific reminder of the urgent need to act to curb gun violence and end the bloodshed on our streets."

    Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer: "I share in the grief of families whose loved ones were shot this morning near the Empire State Building. When this kind of violence erupts on the sidewalks of our city, it affects all New Yorkers. It tears at the heart of our City. I wish a speedy recovery for all those who were injured and mourn the loss of life that took place today. We must redouble our efforts to pass tougher gun laws, and protect the public from future tragedies."

    Credit given to The Gun Wire

  12. #12
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
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    and still nothing from bloomberg about this very disturbing incident of gun violence that plagues new york city. how did the police get these guns? an arizona gun show? straw purchase from new jersey? smuggled in from mexico?

    please mayor bloomberg, solve this problem, place the blame where it belongs.....

  13. #13
    chessail77's Avatar
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    Evidently the NYC police dept has not been trained well on their duty firearms.......

  14. #14
    Bisley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by denner View Post
    I watched the actual shooting and w/ all fairness the two officers had literally split seconds to fire. As they were approaching the suspect at about 15 feet or so he reached into his bag and immediately pointed his .45 directly at the officers w/ the officers literally having no time to react, the one officer didn't even have time to get a two hand hold on his firearm before firing.
    Still, 9 people wounded by the good guys is a poor performance. I appreciate the stress factor, but under stress, a trained person will default to his training. Obviously, the police department in a rabidly anti-gun city is not going to get the upper echelon support it needs, to make its officers as proficient as they need to be. The likelihood that they will be working in a crowd is always going to be high in certain areas, and the best trained shooters should be assigned to those areas. They should be afforded unlimited ammo and practice time and have instruction available, upon request, and marksmanship should be one of the considerations when being reviewed for assignments and promotions.

  15. #15
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    It has since come to light that many of the bystanders weren't "shot" but hit with bullet fragments and debris from ricochets off brick and stone walls. Tactics were more to blame here than inaccurate shooting, but then the environment has to be considered before any body jumps up and starts calling for lynching of NYPD Officers.

    1. "Be sure of what is behind your target and to each side of the target." Problem: in the environment given (downtown NYC) there are no "safe backdrops or people space." The whole area was crowded to a density that only NYC dwellers can know and it is wall to wall buildings.

    2. Wait and get your target away from bystanders (standard FBI procedure) fails because there was absolutely no place within miles where there wasn't going to be a human sea of bystanders.

    3. Take up a good two hand hold and fire carefully from 15 to 25 yards (IPSC and Gunsite). If you are 15-25 yards away from your target in NYC you might as well be in New Jersey! At that range, there will probably be two buildings and at least 50 people between you and target.

    4. They should have approached with pistols drawn and a plan in mind. Problem: All of this happened in a flash, this was not an IPSC session with targets that can't shoot back and a long explanation by an instructor as to the rules for the scenario. One minute a cop is quietly walking his beat and within 10 seconds he is facing down an armed man that just killed somebody. NYC, like most large cities, has strict rules on drawing a weapon. Even if you don't fire it you will still have to stand an inquiry as to why you drew it. Cops just don't walk around carrying their pistols in the hands while walking beat. Batons and TASERs are for restraining, you don't draw your weapon except as a last resort.

    5. Training is training. It is not the real thing. In 30 years in the Corps (6 in Combat) and 2 years, when I was young and foolish, as a Sheriffs Deputy, I know that the real thing very seldom plays out like the "range practice" or schools.

    All in all, I don't really see how this could have played out any other way. It wasn't perfect. But the officers did take aggressive reaction to a public danger. I for one won't criticize them to play political games against their mayor. Nor would I fault their "Rules of Engagement." I think we have a "Job well done" here . It sounds to me like they were good cops.

  16. #16
    recoilguy's Avatar
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    Good cops or not, IPSC indtructor or not, they exibited very poor judgement and very poor skill sets. I am very glad I am not one of those officers because I would hate for my reaction to the sitauation and my ability to make a hit at 15 feet be under intense scrutiny. That being said I would also hope I was trained to handle the situation correctly, so when I had to rely on my training I would be doing the correct thing second nature.

    It apppears every politico in NY jumped on the senseless gun injuries and we need new laws to protect us when in fact those paid to protedt and serve were the ones who inflicted the injuries. In a town where the mayor says cameras will stop crime and guns should only be in the hands of the law. You may not fault their rules of engagement but they were very poorly executed and regard for the important issue when engaging were totally ignored. What ever the reason is not excusable.

    Like I said I would hate to be one of those officers, especially if they are as poorly trained as it appears to me these officers were. Pointing out a flaws in an ideal or an opinion is not playing a game it is pointing out a flaw. Just because it is political does not make it a game and I take offense that it would be considered one.
    Good cops .....probabaly, scared cops.......... more then likely, well executed rules of egagement........not well executed, job well done.......job complete but not well done. Political game.............facts.

    RCG

  17. #17
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post
    It has since come to light that many of the bystanders weren't "shot" but hit with bullet fragments and debris from ricochets off brick and stone walls....


    being hit with a bullet fragment due to a ricochet isn't being shot? then wtf is it? fragments of brick and stone...well i am sure that makes those wounded civilians feel better, knowing it wasnt a ricochet but a piece of granite or shard of clay that blinded them.

    Tactics were more to blame here than inaccurate shooting, but then the environment has to be considered before any body jumps up and starts calling for lynching of NYPD Officers....
    tactics AND inaccurate shooting are to blame, i used MATH and logic to figure this one out. 16 shots fired by the police, 10 shot hit the bad guy, that leave 6 shots (over 33%) of the shots fired by police MISSING their intended target, unless of course they meant to shoot bystanders, buildings, flowerpots and sidewalks. if 33% of your bullets fail to hit a man sized torso at 15 feet, what the %^&* were you doing?
    why are you pulling the trigger when the barrel is off target?
    btw, no one has called for a lynching, infact i called for additional training funds to be spent.


    One minute a cop is quietly walking his beat and within 10 seconds he is facing down an armed man that just killed somebody....
    first, they werent just walking their beat and stumbled upon this man.... they were approached by a witness who told them what happened and they were following him ... they had foreknowledge of the event and that the man was armed.

    second, they were approaching an armed murder suspect without having their guns at the ready... screw paperwork, its bad tactics.

    third, 10 seconds is a lifetime, as i recall the military standard to remove your gas mask from your hip case, put it on, clear it AND ready your weapon is 9 seconds.... you get that good with TRAINING.

    Cops just don't walk around carrying their pistols in the hands while walking beat. Batons and TASERs are for restraining, you don't draw your weapon except as a last resort....
    approaching an armed murder suspect IS the exact time to have your weapon ready. if policy denies the officer that option, the officer needs to find a job where politics isnt going to murder him.


    I for one won't criticize them to play political games against their mayor. Nor would I fault their "Rules of Engagement." I think we have a "Job well done" here . It sounds to me like they were good cops.
    the mayor is a rabid anti gunner who was making an anti gun speech at the time of the shooting, i am not PLAYING politics, i am pointing out irony and hypocrisy on the part of mayor bloomberg. i think we have a job poorly done in the face of bad training and politics. the cops are in a bad situation, rules encumber them needlessly, they arent getting enough of the right type of training and the public is paying for it.

  18. #18
    usmcj's Avatar
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    Bear is right ... period.

  19. #19
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    Now that the whole world has had the opportunity to view the video. These two officers were on duty for the Terrorism Task Force to protect the Empire State building and the people in and around it. It is obvious that they are lacking in the proper training while under great stress which shows in their actions. Ray Kelly should get these guys up to stuff and fast. What are terrorists thinking? I think it would be a very good idea to avoid that city at all costs.

  20. #20
    ZeusApolloPatrol is offline Junior Member
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    Gotta love that 10lb glock trigger pull.

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