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  1. #1
    Rubble's Avatar
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    The Government is pricing us out of ammo.

    The DoD has been ordered to turn once used ammo into scrap instead of selling it to ammunition manufactures.
    This is an assault on ALL ammuntion and will greatly increase the price of all ammo- even if your just a skeet/trap shooter.
    Please see this message on the Georgia Arms website.

    NOW IS THE time you make your senators and representatives aware of your position.
    Please don't sit on this one.
    Here is a copy of the letter I've sent to my elected officials:

    I was recently made aware that the Department of Defense has been ordered to destroy all once used brass, (ammunition cartridges) and sell the brass as scrap. Prior to this order the U.S. Government sold this as surplus ammunition cartridges to ammunition manufactures at a profit and now is receiving 80% less in revenue due to this order. The need for tax revenue in our current economic situation makes this order completely senseless. My tax dollars were used to pay for this brass to begin with and I consider this an outrage. This will even raise the cost of ammunition that our military will have to buy. If thatís not insulting enough I have also found out that China is the largest importer of our scrap brass.

    Itís obvious that this is nothing less than an assault on the 2nd Amendment by pricing the individual out of shooting and this assault on the 2nd Amendment is being done in a circuitous fashion of going around our elected officials to effectively remove our constitutional rights.

    As my elected official I expect that this will be vigorously addressed and I will be watching your actions on this matter closely.

    Please call your Representative and Senator and send a letter by snail mail- it does make a difference.

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  3. #2
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    Second post and the sky is already falling?
    Please site a house bill number or Presidential executive order number. That may be difficult to do being that there isn't one.

    This is a sales driving tactic. Why would a Gov't agency be a LLC? It's the Gov't! DOD LLC, pretty clever.

    BTW wecome to the forum.


    Zhur

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    MLB
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    I've heard this through the "grapevine" too. No hard data yet, and I've heard too many hyped-up fire alarms to bite just yet.

  6. #5
    Rubble's Avatar
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    There is no Presidential order or bill. Its happening within the Dod.

    Don't believe me? Then check out Georgia Arms website and for the full story listen to Tom Gresham's Gun Talk.

    Yes, I'm new to this forum. Don't listen to me- check it out for yourself.

  7. #6
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    Ok.. so I was checking it out further (further than I did yesterday) and DOD Llc is also a subsidiary of Government Liquidations Llc., a company that sells scrap metals and other surplus materials. I had to wade thru about 3 pages of www.ripoffreport.com reports to find the information. I also check the Gov't's websites for any House Bills that are related as well as Presidential Executive orders. The original "panic" email was all about "Obama signs order to destroy OFB!!! (once fired brass)", and there isn't any information.

    Also, keep in mind that Georgia Arms website does what? Sell brass? Do you think that a little panic can get the sales moving a little, especially considering they SELL OFB?

    Tom Gresham... can't listen to him at work (probably shouldn't be posting hehehe), but he appears to be a talk show host. Guess what, he's selling stuff too, in his case, it's air time. If he can get a lot of people listening, he gets his airtime full of advertising. Not saying he's not right, but I haven't heard it on any other talk shows, and I pretty much listen all day at work.

    My grandpa told me once, that if the guy selling you widgets tells you that widgets aren't going to be made anymore, and then he tries to sell you some widgets, expect to pay to much for them. I think the same thing applies here.


    PS. I was honestly welcoming you to the site.


    Zhur

  8. #7
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubble View Post
    Yes, I'm new to this forum. Don't listen to me- check it out for yourself.
    You showed up here last October, made one post that started such a pissing contest that it had to be closed, Who is Barack Obama?, and then you vanished into the wind. Now you show up again with another post that, IMO, is intended to fan the flames. And you wonder why the members are skeptical?

  9. #8
    Rubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhurdan View Post
    Ok.. so I was checking it out further (further than I did yesterday) and DOD Llc is also a subsidiary of Government Liquidations Llc., a company that sells scrap metals and other surplus materials. I had to wade thru about 3 pages of www.ripoffreport.com reports to find the information. I also check the Gov't's websites for any House Bills that are related as well as Presidential Executive orders. The original "panic" email was all about "Obama signs order to destroy OFB!!! (once fired brass)", and there isn't any information.

    Also, keep in mind that Georgia Arms website does what? Sell brass? Do you think that a little panic can get the sales moving a little, especially considering they SELL OFB?

    Tom Gresham... can't listen to him at work (probably shouldn't be posting hehehe), but he appears to be a talk show host. Guess what, he's selling stuff too, in his case, it's air time. If he can get a lot of people listening, he gets his airtime full of advertising. Not saying he's not right, but I haven't heard it on any other talk shows, and I pretty much listen all day at work.

    My grandpa told me once, that if the guy selling you widgets tells you that widgets aren't going to be made anymore, and then he tries to sell you some widgets, expect to pay to much for them. I think the same thing applies here.


    PS. I was honestly welcoming you to the site.


    Zhur
    I'm sorry you don't understand. You will when ALL ammo costs much more simply because the military is now scraping their spent shells instead of re-selling them.

  10. #9
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    brass scrap prices $$$

    interesting, I saw scrap brass prices from $.75 to $1.50 per pound here:
    http://www.recycle.net/cgi-bin/exvie...&sc=0502&st=LW
    also, "government liquidations"

    I havent done the math on cost of cases, but I imagine that old gvt ammo was purchased at a pretty good price. That brass is probably worth more today.

    I would think that a government contract would net a better price with some "value added service" (disassembly, wash, etc.)

    If the motivation is to convert waste into $, I am all for it.... Do you have any other reference for if it's some "swords into plowshares thing"?
    (yes, I did look at the links provided)

    "its all about the benjamins"
    -John

  11. #10
    TMUSCLE1 is offline Junior Member
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    The assault on ammunition begins...

    Obama Administration Stabs Gun Owners in the Back (DoD Surplus Brass No Longer Sold for Reloading)

    Obama Administration Stabs Gun Owners in the Back (DoD Surplus Brass No Longer Sold for Reloading)
    Townhall ^ | March 16, 2009 | John Caile



    We warned you that Barak Obama would publicly deny his radical anti-gun agenda, while engaging in "stealth" attacks on private gun ownership. The most recent example is a directive from the Department of Defense that will severely aggravate the current ammunition shortage.

    For those who either don't own guns (or have been living in a cave) supplies of ammunition are getting alarmingly low. Many retailers report shelves virtually empty of popular pistol and rifle ammo.

    Most ammunition manufacturers depend on reclaiming used brass cartridge cases from the military, that are then recycled to make new ammunition. It is a system that has benefited both the military and the private sector, not to mention saving the taxpayer's money.

    So it is beyond comprehension at a time of serious ammunition shortages, as well as budget shortfalls, that ammunition manufacturers would receive a letter stating the following:

    "Effective immediately DOD Surplus, LLC, will be implementing new requirements for mutilation of fired shell casings. The new DRMS requirement calls for DOD Surplus personnel to witness the mutilation of the property and sign the Certificate of Destruction.

    Mutilation of the property can be done at the DRMO, if permitted by the Government, or it may be mutilated at a site chosen by the buyer. Mutilation means that the property will be destroyed to the extent prevents its reuse or reconstruction. DOD Surplus personnel will determine when property has been sufficiently mutilated to meet the requirements of the Government."

    Now, one has to be curious about WHO suddenly decided to mandate a new policy that makes a bad situation worse, has no benefit to the military, and will result in an increase in costs to the American taxpayer, precisely when the government is running a gigantic deficit.

    But of course we know the real reason behind such actions - after losing a number of elections both locally and nationally, the anti-gun radicals have learned that the way to succeed is to avoid highly public confrontations like wholesale gun bans.

    Instead they have adopted "incrementalism" - stealth campaigns that slowly rob legitimate gun owners of their ability to exercise their rights. They know that they don't need to take your guns away if they can simply make it more and more complex, expensive, and difficult to own and use your guns.

    So, obviously, something like an ammo shortage is a dream come true for the gun haters. Why bother with their guns when simply denying them ammunition makes their firearms useless?

    One wonders when gun owners who were stupid enough to have voted for Obama (and his like minded Democrats in the Congress) will finally stop denying the obvious.

    http://havegunwillvote.blogtownhall....the_back.thtml


    Just an article that I found interesting. Thoughts?

  12. #11
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubble View Post
    I'm sorry you don't understand. You will when ALL ammo costs much more simply because the military is now scraping their spent shells instead of re-selling them.
    I don't understand? Personally, I could give to shakes of a wanker what happens to the price of ammo. Why? Because I planned ahead, FAR ahead. I've got enough reloading components to continue to shoot just as much as I always have. Soooo, perhaps it's not me who doesn't "understand". If you provided any actual facts or links to such facts, I might get a little wind up my pant legs, but every ounce of research that I've done, along with others, shows that this is a hoax. If it's for real, I guess many people will have a problem, me not so much.

    Oh, and by the way, I send a letter a week (sometimes every other week) to different congressmen in regards to my dissatisfaction. It's just one letter, but I'm doing my little part. Your post on the other hand didn't even have the motivation to cut out the parts that make it painfully obvious that it was a simple "Cut and paste to gun forum and watch the flames" type of post. Generally speaking, as a courtesy, if you cut and post something from somewhere else, you might try actually giving them credit for it, by siting the source material, not just posting it under your name. Just a thought.

    Zhur

  13. #12
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    Threads merged.

  14. #13
    Rubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jc27310 View Post
    interesting, I saw scrap brass prices from $.75 to $1.50 per pound here:
    http://www.recycle.net/cgi-bin/exvie...&sc=0502&st=LW
    also, "government liquidations"

    I havent done the math on cost of cases, but I imagine that old gvt ammo was purchased at a pretty good price. That brass is probably worth more today.

    I would think that a government contract would net a better price with some "value added service" (disassembly, wash, etc.)

    If the motivation is to convert waste into $, I am all for it.... Do you have any other reference for if it's some "swords into plowshares thing"?
    (yes, I did look at the links provided)

    "its all about the benjamins"
    -John

    The Govt. makes approx. 80% more selling the cartridges as is instead of scrapping the brass. Just to piss you off- Guess which country buys most of our scrap brass?

    China

    But thats just a trivial piece on the side- Here is the deal.

    Your tax dollars pay for the military's ammo.
    The military use to turn and sell those spent cartridges to ammo manufactures whom then in turn sold it to everyone but the military.
    Instead they are cutting up the cartridges and selling the brass as scrap in which they get much less for then selling them as cartridges- remember YOUR tax dollars.
    Now the demand for .223 can't be partially filled by the used cartridges, instead everyone will have to buy brand new, from the foundry, cartridges from fewer suppliers which are more expensive.

    So, how will this affect you?

    The manufactures making ammo with the spent cartridges will now lose profit from sales they can't make and have to raise prices on all ammo.
    Since part of the demand of brass was supplied through the re-use of cartridges now the price of brass will go up to.

    So how do you get hit?

    More tax dollars spent on military ammo.
    More money spent on your own ammo.

    Why is this happening?

    All because some politician/politicians are using a non-political way of making your ammo more expensive. Since this is being done through the DoD which politician is there to blame? None- see the beauty in it?

    Basically it is incumbent on YOU to make a big deal about to your elected officials in order to change it. Right now they have no reason to change because their not really responsible for it since they inacted no law to create this situation. Its really quite brilliant and frustrating.

  15. #14
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhurdan View Post
    Also, keep in mind that Georgia Arms website does what? Sell brass? Do you think that a little panic can get the sales moving a little, especially considering they SELL OFB?
    Whoa there, Zhur! Are you saying that an ammo manufacturer might have ulterior motives and would post something like this on their site to get people to buy? Wow! I guess then it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to say that gun dealers might use information like this to incite people into buying as well.

  16. #15
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    I also find it interesting that no other brass seller is stating the same thing. That combined with the fact that on the site the OP posted http://georgia-arms.com/ it says that the Department of Defense LLC. Here, let me quote it...

    Due to new government regulations concerning the purchasing of surplus brass, we are removing sales of all 223 and all 308 until further notice. Below is a copy of the email we received from Government Liquidations.
    Ok, so lets start here, What Government regulations? If it's a regulation, it has a papertrail. Please provide one Rubble. Ok thanks.
    Next, a copy of the email we (Georgia Arms) received from Government Liquidations (the parent company of DOD LLC, how convienient)

    "Effective immediately DOD Surplus, LLC, will be implementing new requirements for mutilation of fired shell casings. The new DRMS requirement calls for DOD Surplus personnel to witness the mutilation of the property and sign the Certificate of Destruction.
    So, effective on the orders of DOD Surplus, LLC (not the Gov't) they will be inplementing a new requirement (not the Gov't). Oh, here's where it gets fun... "The new DRMS requirements"... anyone wanna guess what DRMS stands for? Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service, which appears to be a military reclamation site. No notices about brass needing to be destroyed on the whole site, check for yourself. Looks a whole lot like a supply chain. People forcing rumors to push their products. Just as harmful as BHO himself.


    Zhur

  17. #16
    bruce333's Avatar
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    http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD

    LOT (3719)LBS APPROXIMATELY EXPENDED BRASS TO INCLUDE: 1958 LBS - 5. 56MM, 1007 LBS - 7. 65MM - WITH TWO BOXES BEING FIRED BLANKS (90 LBS), 709 LBS - 9MM, 45 LBS - SHOT GUN SHELLS, 3 PLTS, MUTILATION NOT REQUIRED.
    Bruce, Life Member: NRA, NCRPA, GRNC, GOA

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    Nice! For $150, I could get over 700 lbs. of 9mm brass, scrap the rest and probably turn a tidy profit! Although, if I were to buy almost 4000 lbs of brass, I think my wife would shoot me with the first batch of reloads!

  19. #18
    Rubble's Avatar
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    Looks like this mini-crisis maybe coming to an end.

    Here is an excerpt fro another board.

    Below is what Senator Graham's office has found. They are monitoring the waiver request closely and should know something in the next 2-3 weeks.

    As you know, this would be a big problem for law enforcement agencies with low budgets (most of them) and recreational shooters who depend on expended military brass for reloading if the waiver is not granted. There is no "security risk" for selling used brass in bulk. It was probably just a short-sighted bureaucratic move that did not foresee the unintended consequences.

    Military property is subject to certain coding, according to its type and use, whether it can be sold commercially and, if so, under what restrictions.

    According to the sales division of the Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service (DRMS), fired small arms cartridge cases, until recently, were DEMIL
    (demilitarization) Code E, meaning that they could not be sold unless destroyed. However, a waiver to the destruction requirement allowed the cases to be sold intact, within the United States, but not for export.

    Property given DEMIL Code B could be sold as well, under some restrictions. However, in the last days of the Bush Administration, Under-Secretary Bell
    issued a policy letter prohibiting the sale of Code B property. A waiver could be obtained, to allow the sale of Code B property if destroyed in a
    prescribed manner. At the time, this was irrelevant to the question of small arms cartridge cases, because they were still Code E.

    Recently, however, the Demilitarization Coding Management Office within the DRMS recommended that small arms cartridge cases be given Code B. This
    recommendation was accepted. Therefore, currently, fired military small arms cartridge cases are Code B property that may be sold only if destroyed.

    However, the sales division of DRMS, recognizing the impact that this new policy will have on small businesses who sell loaded ammunition utilizing these fired cases, and upon gun owners who purchase such ammunition at considerable cost savings, has suspended the collection of fired cartridge cases from military bases, to prevent their destruction. And, they will be petitioning for a waiver, to allow the sale of intact cartridge cases .50 caliber and below. They are not asking for a waiver for larger cases, which are purchased as souvenir type items -- artillery shells, for example. They anticipate that within the next 2-3 weeks, the waiver will be approved.

  20. #19
    bruce333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubble
    Looks like this mini-crisis maybe coming to an end.

    Here is an excerpt from another board.
    PM me a link to that please.


    edit:NM... just checked Georgia Arms site:

    Dear Loyal Customers,

    Thanks to your voice, DOD has rescinded the order to mutilate all spent cases as of 4:30 pm on 3/17/09. We appreciate the time and effort that you expended, together we all made a difference. We will be posting the email we received from DOD as well as any additional information within the next 12-16 hours. Thanks so much and lets get to work!!! Georgia Arms
    Bruce, Life Member: NRA, NCRPA, GRNC, GOA

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  21. #20
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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  22. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruce333 View Post

    Dear Loyal Customers,

    Thanks to your voice, DOD has rescinded the order to mutilate all spent cases as of 4:30 pm on 3/17/09. We appreciate the time and effort that you expended, together we all made a difference. We will be posting the email we received from DOD as well as any additional information within the next 12-16 hours. Thanks so much and lets get to work!!! Georgia Arms
    So it sounds like Georgia Arms pressured a private company that buys and sells government surplus to stop crushing spent brass before they sell it.

    Way to stick it to the man, Georgia Arms!

    I'd be willing to bet there is some kind of comfortable arrangement between Georgia Arms and DOD Surplus, LLC. What other reason is there for a make believe scare?

  23. #22
    James NM's Avatar
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    Rubble,

    I for one would like to thank you for posting this here to help keep us informed. Well done sir. It is people like you that take the time to educate the uninformed that I believe is the key to protecting and keeping our 2A rights.

    Here is some more info on the issue you were trying to educate us about http://www.shootingwire.com/
    One Win For Our Side
    At about five-thirty yesterday evening, the lengthy feature that was to have gone in today's editions of both the Outdoor and Shooting Wires was rendered unnecessary. Normally, that's not a reason for celebration. But this was no ordinary occurrence.

    After having spoken with Larry Haynie of Georgia Arms regarding the Department of Defense decision to require all once-fired military brass be shredded rather than sold for repurposing to consumers and domestic agencies, it seemed the set-piece battle over gun ownership was underway.

    This morning, there is no discomfort whatsoever to report that the Department of Defense has been introduced to the idea that unilateral decisions of this magnitude don't come without consequences.

    The voice of reason came from the United States Senators from Montana.

    More accurately, the voices of reason came from the Democratic senators from Montana.

    At approximately 4:15 p.m. Eastern yesterday afternoon, Senators Tester and Baucus of Montana faxed a cosigned letter to the Department of Defense asking DOD to reverse their new policy requiring "mutilation" of fired military cartridge brass.

    At approximately 5:30 p.m. Eastern our sources tell us, Senator Tester's office received a fax back from the Defense Department saying the brass destruction policy IS reversed.

    Already, websites that coordinate the sale of DOD surplus are beginning to remove the "Mutilation" requirement from their listings. This only hours after they began adding the mutilation stipulation.

    In short, it seems a fax from the Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee and another Senator had considerable powers of persuasion.

    That translates to a win for the law-abiding gun owners of the United States.

    It is only appropriate that we recognize the party affiliation of both these men, because their willingness to go to bat for the ammunition industry demonstrates that, despite all the indications to the contrary, Washington is not irrevocably divided down party lines.

    When it comes to firearms and Second Amendment rights, it seems party affiliations can still be disregarded.

    That is reassuring.

    Today, firearms owners owe these two gentlemen a vote of thanks.

    They didn't wait for an opinion poll, they acted.

    Still, this is still no time to relax when it comes to firearms.

    DOD has seen the light, but Attorney General Holder and the Justice Department seem determined to try and convince America the problems with Mexican drug smuggling and the related violence is due to the ease with which American arms are being purchased here and smuggled into Mexico.

    Fortunately, not everyone is sitting still for that argument.

    Last week, Chris Cox, executive director of the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action warned a House subcommittee not to make American gun owners "scapegoats" for the Mexican crisis.

    "According to some," Cox said in a prepared statement, "the violence in Mexico is not the fault of the Mexican drug cartels or their American customers, nor is it the fault of decades of Mexican government corruption. In their views, the fault lies with American gun owners."

    That, Cox continued, "is an outrageous assertion."

    But that assertion continues.

    And last week, three Democratic lawmakers were quick to notify Attorney General Holder of their "vigorous opposition" to any new gun restrictions the Obama administration might be considering.

    The three lawmakers were Alaska Senator Mark Begich and - you guessed it - Montana Senators Max Baucus and Jon Tester.

    Despite some ugly times that will likely lie ahead, it seems it's not too-late to hope for some non-partisan common sense to be injected into Congress.

    OK, maybe that's optimistic, but we'll take this win - and all the support we can muster.

    Thank you, Senators Tester and Baucus, for your unhesitating support.

    Oh yeah - the following note is up on the Georgia Arms website:

    "Dear Loyal Customers,

    Thanks to your voice, DOD has rescinded the order to mutilate all spent cases as of 4:30 pm on 3/17/09. We appreciate the time and effort that you expended, together we all made a difference. We will be posting the email we received from DOD as well as any additional information within the next 12-16 hours. Thanks so much and lets get to work!!!"

    --Jim Shepherd

    I would also like to say that I am sorry for the way you were treated in this thread. You proved that low post count is not necessarily an indicator of a bad post, while others proved that high post counts is not an indicator of good posts. Pretty good lesson there.

  24. #23
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James NM View Post
    I would also like to say that I am sorry for the way you were treated in this thread. You proved that low post count is not necessarily an indicator of a bad post, while others proved that high post counts is not an indicator of good posts. Pretty good lesson there.
    Apparently the whole point that DOD Surplus LLC and Government Liquidation LLC are part of the same company and NOT part of the Government doesn't lend any credence to the fact that they stand to profit from panic buying, as did Georgia Arms being that they bought the materials from DOD Surpluss LLC and Government Liquidation LLC.

    Nor the fact that there never was a ban or executive order in place to destroy the brass, simply that someone posted incorrect information and created a scare.(Georgia Arms) Especially considering the convienient name, DOD Surplus LLC, which I'm sure wasn't named that to be confusing in any way. The name implies some connection to the Gov't, which it does not have, as Gov't agencies are not Limited Liability Companies. It was a scare tactic, plain and simple, and propegating it is bad news. All the companies needed to do was..
    1. NOT export it
    2. Get a waiver
    and they could sell the crap out of it. Imagine that, more to the story.

    But it's apparent I have my eyes closed.
    Zhur

  25. #24
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    Zhur, thanks for the extensive research and information you provided..It is really good to have fellow members like you who put the time and effort to get the truth..Thanks for a job well done, and keep it up..!!

  26. #25
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    Hey Todd, also thanks for monitoring the forum and making sure everything is in order..Great job...How is that new SIG doing - I read your range report..Next time we need some Target Pictures.

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