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  1. #1
    cclaxton's Avatar
    cclaxton is offline Member
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    Question Training for competition with a Cz DA/SA, should I practice with DAO Carry Gun?

    I now own a Cz 75 Shadow 9mm that I got from Ghost Products. It has the competition trigger job, and I love the pistol. However, I don't carry that gun...it is for practicing so that I can be good enough not to be embarrassed to go to an IDPA Qualifier. I am getting better, being able to keep 90% of my paper target hits within 3" at 10 yards. I am working on sighting and trigger form so I can move the target out and keep it to 3".

    However, I have also been practicing regularly with my primary carry gun, a Kahr PM9, which has a totally different trigger: Long pull about 6 pounds. Although I really like the Kahr due to weight, concealability, short distance accuracy and handling, I am concerned that my trigger finger operation will suffer because I practice with that long DAO.

    I also have a Cz 2075 RAMI Polymer, which I can carry, but it is definitely heavier, thicker, and frankly, I don't like how the hammer sticks out when Cocked and Loaded....it cuts into my skin with IWB holster. Also, it doesn't have the competition trigger job, although I am thinking of sending it in for the job to make it nearly the same as my Shadow.

    Frankly, I would love to have a Cz the size of the Kahr for carry, and have actually considered the Cz 83 for that reason. I also have a Bersa Thunder 380CC I can carry and it has a very similar trigger to the Cz 75.

    I have started looking around for small, lightweight 9mm's with a similar trigger weight to the Shadow, but I am not sure that this is really a problem.

    What do the competition experts here think?
    Should I practice only with guns with DA/SA triggers similar to the 75 Shadow, or will it benefit me in the long term to practice and become proficient with both types of trigger operations?

    If you have a carry gun you would suggest that would meet my training and practice requirements, let me know.

    Maybe Cz will come out with a Cz-Micro for Carry.

    Thanks, in advance.

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  3. #2
    HK Dan is offline Member
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    For match shooting, practice with the gun you're going to shoot the matchwith. For carry, practice with the gun you're going to carry.

    Accuracy training is fine, for what it is. Acuracy is the fundamental skill to master. However, you're going to need fast accuracy, and that probably means using a flash sight picture, learning the 5 types of focus, and learning the lines of demarcation when one changes to another. A typical"training session" for me goes like this (I shoot with a group of 2-5 other shooters):

    1 full mag of group shooting. 2.5" circle at 25 yards. The guy who cuts the most paint wins.
    1 Full maag of one shot draws on steel at 10 yards. The guy with the most dingers wins. The guy with the fastest draw with a hit is Matt Dillon.
    Draw with 2 shots, 1 full mag. USPSA scoring.
    3 Bill drills, 1 at 5, one at 7, and one at 10 yards. USPSA scoring.
    3 El Presidentes.1 at 7, 1 at 10, and 1 at 15 yards. USPSA scoring.
    Mini stages. We set up stages using 3 targets, weak hand, one hand, table starts--anything we think might be in a match. We'll run from 5-10 mini stages before quitting, and we'll shoot them 2-3 times each. USPSA scoring.

  4. #3
    recoilguy's Avatar
    recoilguy is offline Senior Member
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    I compete with a CZ SP-01 with a competition trigger job as well and I carry a Kahr in the summer and a 75 compact in the winter or on occasion my G26. My advice is this get out of your head and know your weapons. The Kahr is the perfect conceal Weapon and the CZ you own is a top notch competition weapon. You need to practice with each weapon for the purpose you own each weapon. Stop trying to make them both do the same thing and learn to control each for what it is.

    Practice with the Kahr because your life may depend on it. Get proficient as possible with that weapon. Also please get a better IWB holster that protects you from the hammer on your Rami. A good gun like the Rami deserves a well made holster. As for the Bersa thats your call. If you learn trigger control the trigger will not be as important because you have mastered the ability (skill) to control it. If you can control the Kahr's trigger and hold your POA you will have no trouble with your CZ 75 or the Rami (even without a trigger job). When you practice with the Kahr you need to practice correctly and get that bullet to go where you aim it. You need to be able to get to your holster, get the gun out of your holster and put a bullet in the target cosistantly. When practicing with your CZ practice in an entirely different way trying to make them the same is what is screwing you up. You are practicing for IDPA and USPSA like you are practicing for a NRA bullseye shoot. It impress's the guys at the range if you can tear out a bullseye at 10 yards I guess, but will not help you much if any in the competitions you are practicing for. The guys who shoot those competition don't care either.

    Holster your CZ at home, beep, draw ,aim. Did you do it correctly.....really how do you know? Are your hands in the right place? every time? is it really the right place or is it just where your hands go? It may feel right but to get better it has to be right. Draw to psition 2, back to holster repeat. repeat repeat. Now to position 3. did you see the front site all the way or were you looking for it once you got to the end of 3? there are many other drills you need to practice to actually practice for competition.Bill Drills, Bowtie drills, El Persidnete' ect. Draw, acquire, shot. Can you move from target to target? effectively? how clean are your mag changes? Can you feel the reset point in your trigger, can you make your second shot from there instead of letting it travel all the way home on the CZ?

    With that CZ, holster your gun, put your hands at your side, draw, take one shot as fast as possible and see if it in the alpha zone of a silloute target. If you own a shot timer try to do that in less then 3 seconds keep trying until you are in the alpha with 1 shot consistantly. Then try to do that in less then 2 seconds. Next holster your weapon, hands at side draw and shoot 2 shots as fast as possible, are both alphas? how fast did you do that. Once you are confident with 2 shots..... do a Bill Drill..... you are the google zen master and wikipedias best student you will know what that is. Try to do it in less the 6 seconds with 6 alphas then less then 5. Then 4 then 3. Standing and shootin a 3" group is not practicing with your CZ.

    Thinking of changing your carry weapon to match the trigger of your competition gun is silly if you ask me. The Kahr will protect you, learn to shot it and teach your mind to know that when your hand feels the smaller handle, the trigger will still need to be controlled it just doesn't go bang quite as fast. You need to not anticipate the bang, but hold steady until you get it. The Kahr will be a great friend to you and will hide on you very nicely. Keep it and learn to use it. Stop looking for short cuts.

    The CZ is a great gun but standing at 10 yards and shooting bullseyes is not practicing for competiition, nor will it impress your fellow competitors or help you alot when you start to draw, shoot, move, more targets, hard cover, steel, did I miss one?, reload, shot or move closer?, reload again, how many bullets are left? how many targets are left? Those others guys make this look so easy, I heard it go ding but it didn't fall, If you are done unload and show clear..........If all you want to do is shoot a 3" group at 15 yards or 20 yards good luck and keep practing like you are.Either way my advice is learn to use both weapons for their intended purpose, you own 2 very fine weapons. Enjoy them both stop over thinking and looking for short cuts. A gun is a tool and each tool serves a purpose. Most of all you will begin to have a lot more fun when you let each gun be what it is and learn to useit as such. This is a great sport, enjoy it don't over thinhk it.

    RCG

    HK Dan beat me to it and said it in way less words. I started to type this and had to go to a short meeting.......... then finished HK Dan is right on.

  5. #4
    cclaxton's Avatar
    cclaxton is offline Member
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    HK and RCG,
    Thanks for the great replies!
    This is a big help.
    I have had the Kahr for a while and it really is my friend these days...I carry it everywhere because I have a great IWB holster for it and I can conceal it and draw it quickly and hit a 4" target with two quick shots at 7 yards. And, then another two, etc. I feel good about the Kahr, but I was noticing how different it is from the Cz, and since I am going to spend a lot of time practicing with the Cz, wanted to make sure I am not confusing my fingers and hands. But it sounds like my body will know as long as I practice enough.

    Question: How important is it to practice being able to hold the gun in shooting position perfectly still for 1 minute, and then to hold my aim perfectly still for a minute and then being able to pull the trigger without affecting my aim before I go on to draw, aim, and shoot practice? In other words should I work on more fundamentals to get them right before going to draw, acquire shoot?

    Thanks,

  6. #5
    recoilguy's Avatar
    recoilguy is offline Senior Member
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    Trigger control and grip are the two most imprtant things as far as I am concerned. The grip should be the same Everytime you grip the gun. Every time. The trigger control is easier then. If you have trigger control you can hit your target. Without it you can hold your hand still for a week and then when you pull the trigger you will miss. Drawing is a fundimental to competition. So is target acqusition. Practice them you wont need to hold your hand still for a minute ever.

    Getting your grip corect from the draw, then having total trigger control. I can not express how important trigger control is. Make the draw and correct grip second nature do it at least 3000 times correctly and you will then just do it right every time. think about controling the trigger. don't anticipate dont flinch dont jerk and when the gun goes of let the trigger back to the point of reset and fire again. It does not have to travel all the way back to work and it only make reaquiring the target that much more complicated. pulling the trigger without effecting the aim....that is golden do that and everything else works.

    RCG

    If you ask me, holding the gun perfectly still for a minute is totally not important at all.

  7. #6
    rgrundy's Avatar
    rgrundy is offline Member
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    You will not do well on your first attempt at competition. It is a learning experience and from your failures you will have an opportunity to learn. The people at the matches will not laugh at you because they were right where you are at now. Learn what has been laid out above and have fun. Trigger reset is probably the one thing you absolutely need to learn to compete well. Proper sight picture and draw cycle are the others. Practice and don't take yourself too seriously. One of my "groupies" I have to keep reminding to breath because he gets so uptight he holds his breath and on the long courses does terribly. Just relax, breath and have fun. We won't eat you. We like new shooters. We won't begin to abuse you until you get good enough to be a threat then well joke with you a bit.

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