View Poll Results: Which is the better gun for production competition?
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Glock 34 with fiber optic sight, etc.
Smith & Wesson M&P Pro Series
Springfield XD(m) competitive pistol
Cz SP-01 Custom Target
Beretta 92 with optics and improvements
Which handgun for Production class competition?
The recent edition of Handguns Magazine noted that competitors are using the following weapons to compete in production class, which requires use of production line pistols, but allows sights, grip tape/improvements, and trigger work. You must use full powered ammo, and you cannot modify the frame. You are allowed to change the trigger spring but no hairpin triggers.
I order of popularity, they were using the following guns:
Smith and Wesson M&P's (5" Barrels)
Springfield XD(M) (5.25" barrel)
Cz SP01 Series (5" Barrel)
Beretta 92 series
So, I am interested in going to compete in the IDPA events, and would like to get a pistol to use:
Which one should I choose? If the gun doesn't come with fiber-optic sight, I will add it (Glocks, ie.) All 9mm.
1) Glock 34, add fiber optic sight and rear target sight, change trigger spring, etc. $600, plus another $150 improvements. [Never owned a Glock]
2) Smith and Wesson M&P Pro-Series includes fiber-optic sight, but standard otherwise. $670, but includes sights. [Not sure I like the wierd safety trigger..feels mushy. ]
3) Springfield XD(M) Competition with fiber optic, but no trigger job. $750. [Nice trigger already]
4) Cz SP01 Target from Custom Shop with Trigger Job and improvements, $1150 [Oh my God!....The Trigger is unbelievable!, great sights, too]
5) Beretta 92 Series, but will have to add improvments. $600 plus another $150 in improvements.
Any experience with any of these guns? Recommendations?
I think that you'll find that "Production Class" is a class in USPSA competition for box stock pistols that fit in the "box", with modifications descibed in the USPSA handbook. IDPA and USPSA are both fun to shoot. When you start either don't plan on doing very well at first. Any game requires some experience and time. Just have fun and be safe. I use the Glock and it works. Two guys are shooting the new XDm 5.25 and doing well. I've shot the Beretta but it's not a competitive pistol and you won't see many use it. You may want to go to the IDPA and USPSA websites and see the rules on the pistols/holsters and classes. If you show up at a shoot I'm sure you'll be allowed to compete no matter what you are wearing. USPSA has a lot more latitude as to what you can shoot and is actually geared towards the "Race Guns". IDPA is more of a defensive real life competition. Neither is really "tactical" and both are games but they will teach you to think quickly, handle the pistol safely while doing so, and shoot well while moving and under stress.
The G34 is considered state of the art in either sport. You mention "Production" which is USPSA, and then mention shooting IDPA, which would be SSP or ESP Divisions. In either case, the G34 will out shoot you for many years. The M&P is an up and comer. XD is a has-been, use has been falling off for 2 years, and with good reason. Beretta will not be competitive. The CZ is a decent gun, but is prone to extractor issues on that model. If you go with a G34 and a Ghost Rocket connector, you are going to have a good game (provided you can run the gun).
The ability to read a magazine and make a list, which it is obvious you are good at, is very much different then the ability to run a course and shoot the gun. On the CZ your note was Oh my God what a trigger, have you shot one? They are not easy to come by. The SP-01 is a great weapon, the custom shop model is worked on by Angus or his staff which makes it a finely tuned machine. They aren't just everywhere for folks to shoot! You ask about USPSA production then say you want to shoot IPDA. Your definition of production allowable modifications is an oversimplification at best. Getting into competition is like golf, just because you have good clubs doesn't mean you will break 90.
I'm a big fan of the M&P 9 Pro. It works great for SSP in IDPA. Nothing wrong with the G34, I just prefer the grip angle on the S&W.
That's okay HB, you're just not used to a proper grip angle yet. <g>
And Recoilguy, the SP-01 from the cutom shop is the very gun thaqt I mentioned--HUGE extractor issues. I've seen 3 of them now, and they all needed a new extractor at about 1000 rounds or so.
Interesting........I have one and I know of many. I can't imagine any gun with that price tag having HUGE problems with as few as 1000 rounds. I put that many through my weapon some weeks. I also can't imagine Angus allowing anything he is assosiated with have the reputation it appears to have on your account. I don't know Angus personally but I know of him and of his work. He takes pride in what he does and what he puts in the market. He has obviously failed on those 3 guns. 1000 rounds is nothing for this type of weapon. This week end alone I will put over 1500 through mine. I do have back up parts and a back up weapon but I anticipate zero problems and am confident the gun will be flawless. I am not saying you don't know of 3 bad ones but they are the only 3 I have heard of and I pay a lot of attention to CZ and their products.
I know, it's been 100% for us. Every SP01 from the custom shop has had the same issue. (I've shot with Angus Hobdell too). I'm normally a CZ fan, but that particular gun (or those particualr guns) had bad metal in the extractor and they were from Hobdell's shop.
Made a Decision....CZ!
CZ 75 SHADOW DUO TONE
Cz Factory Pistol customized with competition hammer and trigger, plus $100 polishing of all components. They promised me the trigger would feel exactly like the custom pistols...we shall see. It is IDPA legal, and has no decocker or firing pin safety.
I should have it next Friday....can't wait to try it out.
The losing gun: S&W M&P Pro 9mm....could have got one on Gunbuyer.com for $700,, but went with the Cz....hope I made the right decision.
That particular gun will be ESP I think (single action). Good luck!
Good choice. Just relax now and have some safe fun.
30 FMJ bullets at 30 feet and 3.5" hole....one stray.
What I noticed is that it is easier to pull the trigger in SA mode without stressing/moving any other muscles, thus resulting in steadier shot.
The fiber optic front sight helps, too.
Next, practice holding arms out with gun to gain strength and steady hold;
New prescription shooting glasses;
Then, improving my aim;
Then, refine my trigger action;
Then, maybe I can hit the center of the target at 25 yards!
That is my goal.
Then, work on holster practice!...
Will it ever end?
What is your opinion as to how good a person has to be to compete in the top 50% of IDPA??
If you are getting into this to compete and be the best you won't last long. I got into it to learn and improve by playing with all the smart kids and eventually got to be good. But being good wasn't a priority. If you don't have fun there will be a nearly new CZ pistol for sale soon.
I don't expect to compete at the top. And, I do want to have fun with it and get better at defensive tactics. But always placing at the bottom is no fun either. I think of it like shooting Trap with shotguns: I am embarrassed when I get anything lower than 12/25, and I am happy when I get an 18/25. (I got perfect scores at Wobble Trap and decided it was time to do something more challenging).
So, how good do you have to be to get to 50%? Do I have to hit a steel target at 25 yards every time?
I am really looking to get good enough to earn a respectable score... how good do I have to be?
It's a combination of accuracy, speed, and movement. The safety factor is top priority and even if you can move fast and shoot well you don't get a score if you get DQ'd. Go to the IDPA website and see the rules and see if you can get a feel for the scores. Youtube has videos you can watch too. These two videos show the good and the beginner. It is not tactical training by any means. You'll notice they don't run to cover. If you want that go into the military or take a private course.
IDPA Classifier - Sharpshooters - YouTube
IDPA Classifier - YouTube
Does Glock still make the 17L (long slide?). That would be my choice.
Hey--don't confuse either USPSA or IDPA with training. Neither will help you develop "defensive tactics",at best they are practice sessions for skills you are developing, but neither will replace comeptent instruction. Look up Rob Pincus and take his "Combat Focus Shooting" class. Larry Vickers is another good one, and so is Massad Ayoob.
Gaming is gaming and training is training!
Unless someone is shooting back at you it's all gaming. I don't care how much "tactical" training you have, if you are afraid to die you'll probably lose. A good 85% of us are and make lousy soldiers/fighters.
Originally Posted by HK Dan
I have been competing in IDPA since I got the Cz....just about every weekend a different IDPA match. Except for BUG matches, and one I shot with a Glock, I have used the Cz75. Whenever anybody feels the trigger on my Cz they give me the "how do they make the trigger like that?" kind of look. The Cz has been 100% reliable, and I have probably put 2000 rounds through it. It is also very fast with resets and target acquisition.
Originally Posted by rgrundy
I started out shooting SSP with it, but after my trip to Frontsight, where they forced me to use my manual safety, I am now competing in ESP division. I am slowly reducing my IDPA speeds and improving my accuracy. But have no regrets about the Cz. I do have a couple of minor complaints: The silver hardcoat on the frame has chipped in a couple of spots...but I am not sure the blued one would have been any better because the frame is alloy. It might have been good to get an adjustable rear sight, but I am fine without it.
Later on I got a Glock 34 and ran one match with the Glock. I like the Glock a lot, but the grip angle is very different and I am leaving it alone until I get my classifier done for ESP with the Cz. I may do a classifier for SSP with the Glock at some point in the future when I reach the ESP level I want.
My enthusiasm for the sport has not waned...I am so dissapointed I didn't do a match this weekend....but leaves me more time to dryfire practice!!!
I really like the M&P Pro as well...got a chance to shoot one. Maybe someday I will see a good deal on one and pick it up!
Latest addition is a Kimber Ultra CDP II in 9mm....for carry....I like the 1911 triggers....maybe a .45 CDP gun will be in my future as well.
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