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Thread: Right to Carry.... really?

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    usmcj's Avatar
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    Right to Carry.... really?


    • On my property I can deny you the right to bear arms if I so wish. Doesn't matter if the property I own is my personal home or my mega big box Wal Mart store... I own it and I make the rules.

      On my property I can deny you the right to free speech if I so wish. I can make a rule that you will NOT be allowed to preach a sermon (I can deny the right to freedom of religion too) nor will you be allowed to pester people by trying to convince them your right to bear arms trumps my right to throw you out.

      On my property I can deny you the right to be secure in your person and possessions by posting a sign stating I reserve the right to look in the bags you bring in. Sound familiar? Many stadiums do this.. even Hobby Lobby does this! And it is their right!

      And on my property I can deny you.......... entry if I so wish. And if I do and you don't like it you can take yourself, and your rights, on down the road. If you don't want to go I will ask the police to escort you off the property perhaps even arrest you for trespass. You do know that trespass means your person, YOU, as an individual person.. YOU specifically!, are not welcome and no longer allowed to be on the property.... right? The reason would not be gun control.. the reason would be control of YOU because YOU disobeyed the rule about guns.

      I have the private property right to do all those things. You have the right to stay the hell off my property if you don't like my rules.

      The funny thing is... on YOUR property you have the exact same property rights.....

      Gander Mountain has the rule that anyone bringing a gun into the store must check them at the check out desk.. but guns carried under a lawful concealed carry permit are not subject to that demand. (Gander Mountain has a gunsmith on duty and folks bring in guns other than carry guns to be worked on or traded). Plus.... a particular Gander Mountain (according to my understanding) also has a rule that any guns carried under a lawful concealed carry permit MUST remain holstered while in the store. In other words... checking to see if a holster fits your loaded carry gun is not allowed in the store.

      So there you have a store (private property) that made rules that respect the right to bear arms... but still put restrictions upon that right while on the private property!

      "Shall not be infringed" is directed at the government.... only the government!.. so gun control is when the government passes laws that restrict the right to bear arms. Only the government can institute gun control through laws that restrict the right to bear arms.

      "Shall not be infringed" is not directed at the individual so private property rights is when the property owner presents people with an agreement, spoken or otherwise, that if folks want to use the property they agree to abide by the rules concerning being allowed to use said property. Break the rules and you will no longer be allowed to use the property. Private property owners do not institute gun control.. they have the right to control who has access to their property... for almost any reason. Including carrying guns. A property with a "no guns" rule denies access to those who carry guns. They are not denying access to guns.. Dude.. they are denying access to PEOPLE! who carry guns.

      A general comment directed at no one in particular...

      Sometimes I wonder if the contention about property rights isn't about the right to bear arms but is really about being offended by the idea that people do not have a right to shop but are only being "allowed" to go into a store. As if the customers of a business have some kind of right to be there and the store owner has no rights at all. Some ego strokers, just won't believe, or cannot comprehend that a license to carry does NOT trump private property rights.








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    chessail77's Avatar
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    Well said......and totally correct as well....

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    Benny1636 is offline Junior Member
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    And its my right not to patronize your private property and to warn others on handgun forums that your a nazi who tries to infringe and my rights. The above post that your so butthurt over (businesses that dont want us) soes not make an arguement that we should be able to do whatever we want on private property. It simply points out what properties law abiding upstanding citizens are not allowed to protect themselves on.

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    chessail77's Avatar
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    By enforcing their rights, they are NOT infringing on yours, just feel free to go elsewhere.....

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    usmcj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny1636 View Post
    And its my right not to patronize your private property and to warn others on handgun forums that your a nazi who tries to infringe and my rights. The above post that your so butthurt over (businesses that dont want us) soes not make an arguement that we should be able to do whatever we want on private property. It simply points out what properties law abiding upstanding citizens are not allowed to protect themselves on.
    Sir, those businesses that lose your business, will not even notice your absence. As fragile as your ego is, I'm very concerned as to whether your level of maturity truly lends itself to possession of a firearm, much less carry. Name calling is a junior high school activity, but if the shoe fits.......

    My opinion, Benny... is that attitudes like yours are by and large, the reason behind some of the "no guns" signs in the first place.


    • A License to Carry a Handgun is NOT the right to bear arms. It is an infringement on the right to bear arms because it is the government requiring folks to ask for permission to bear an arm in a concealed manner.





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    Benny1636 is offline Junior Member
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    Says the guy that starts bashing on people hes.never met because they dont carry the same way he carries. Also i didnt see any name calling in my post. For a guy who talks so much about his abnormally high level of common sense and everyone elses lack thereof, you seldom display intllegence in your posts. You oftem make arguements againsts points that were not even made, and point out things that were never even said.

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    berettabone is offline Banned
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    Although I like Gander Mountain, I usually make my purchases elsewhere......not because of their rules, but because of their prices...........as a business, they can do what they like....doesn't mean I have to give them my business.....

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    Benny1636 is offline Junior Member
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    Gander mountain does support legal carry. The one around here has great prices. The best i can fimd without going online. That being said we do not have a cabelas or bass pro anywhere close. So they easily beat the local shops inflated prices.

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    Harryball's Avatar
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    Thank god for rights....

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    usmcj's Avatar
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    Well, folks, lets try this..... the other thread was to list, and boycott businesses that "don't want us", ... "us" being folks who carry guns. We (yes, I carry concealed, and open, depending on the situation) don't like to be singled out, just because we choose to "keep and bear arms".

    Many here want their "rights" to be recognized and accepted, as evidenced by the indignant reaction to my assessment of some folks who were so wrapped up in their rights, they were willing to run roughshod over the rights of other folks.

    I have to wonder how outraged some of you would be if you should discover that business owners may access CCW information, and publish a list of gun owners who my not be welcome in some establishments?

    This thread I started to point out that business owners also have rights. I find it more than a little hypocritical for some folks to howl about the infringement of their perceived rights, but in the next breath, seek to infringe upon the rights of others.

    y'all have a Merry Christmas if it applies, or if it doesn't, a peaceful celebration of whatever faith you choose to observe.

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    usmcj's Avatar
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    oh... Benny... "name calling".... ? See "nazi"... post number three... this thread. And you should really work on your spelling. This forum does have a spell-check system.

    Good day, sir.

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    jakeleinen1 is offline Member
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    As the silly ignorant tagline of my generation says

    I'ma do me, you do you...

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    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcj View Post

    • A License to Carry a Handgun is NOT the right to bear arms. It is an infringement on the right to bear arms because it is the government requiring folks to ask for permission to bear an arm in a concealed manner.

    This is absolutely correct. If you must request permission of your employees (read that as civil servants) to carry a firearm, then it is no longer a right but rather a privilege. In my state there is only one way to carry which adheres to the Second Amendment and that is openly. No permission is necessary for this.

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    jakeleinen1 is offline Member
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    I think its worth mentioning that criminals don't care if they have the right to carry on your properties tho so property owners who don't allow carry are extremely foolish
    NickAcker23 likes this.

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    I appreciate your clear and simple definition of rights. I agree with you. As a staunch conservative by nature I like to discuss (not debate) the application of just about any issue relating to the constitution. I am always amazed at how people who do not agree with me, when faced with facts that do not support their position, always want to imply that I am not "open" to modern interpetation. Facts be dammed I guess. Likewise, the issue of peoples rights, when discussed such as in this thread, always seems to illustrate very graphically how little most people know or understand the constitution. We have even made healthcare a so called right! Thanks again for the great thread starter.

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    Benny1636 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddog1 View Post
    I appreciate your clear and simple definition of rights. I agree with you. As a staunch conservative by nature I like to discuss (not debate) the application of just about any issue relating to the constitution. I am always amazed at how people who do not agree with me, when faced with facts that do not support their position, always want to imply that I am not "open" to modern interpetation. Facts be dammed I guess. Likewise, the issue of peoples rights, when discussed such as in this thread, always seems to illustrate very graphically how little most people know or understand the constitution. We have even made healthcare a so called right! Thanks again for the great thread starter.
    This isnt a great thread this is him being butthurt after he attacked me on the last page of this thread.....http://www.handgunforum.net/ccw/1796...want-us-4.html...... because I open carried and then I proceeded to make him look stupid.

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    Benny1636 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcj View Post
    oh... Benny... "name calling".... ? See "nazi"... post number three... this thread. And you should really work on your spelling. This forum does have a spell-check system.

    Good day, sir.
    That wasnt name calling, it was calling you for what you are. Nazi isnt a name its a party. Also this forum does not have a spell check for my phone, which is what I mistyped (not misspelled) on. Again, you misrepresenting the facts.

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    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    This is a visceral argument on a number of gun websites with some claiming that a business opens its doors to the invitation of the public while other claiming as usmcj has in his post that a business is still a privately owned property and no different than someone's home when it comes to property rights. Regardless of how one may feel about this issue, it ultimately comes down to what the law in a given state says and it is prudent to know these laws if you are of a mind to carry a firearm. However, there is one fly in the ointment in this.

    Businesses can refuse service to most anyone for most any reason... unless you are a member of a "protected class", which is the ultimate governmental discrimination. It would be very interesting if a business attempted to have a person removed from their premises if he was carrying and happened to be black, or handicapped, or some other "protected class". I wonder how that would iron out.

    From my perspective, I am fully in support of private property rights for one simple reason. You cannot be free if you don't own property. So if you cannot exercise your chosen control over your property, you have lost a measure of freedom. This concept is straight from Jefferson and very eloquently elaborated upon by Michael Badnarik in his seven part class on the Constitution... seven hours which I highly recommend you folks take the time and watch (link provided below).

    You have two options when entering a business which is not friendly to the carrying of arms. Keep you mouth shut, your firearm concealed and go about your business. Or take your business elsewhere where it is appreciated. I am NOT advocating the first option, merely mentioning it. I make every effort to avoid businesses that post gun buster signs. Fortunately there are almost none in my area.

    While some may believe that their right to defend themselves trumps property rights, think about this for a moment. Do you have a right to march around in a store with protest signs, screaming your dissatisfaction with the store's policies in vulger and vile language? Of course not. So why would you think you have a right to carry a firearm onto someone's property against their wishes? Would you do this on a neighbor's lawn or in his home?

    The one thing that is cast is stone is rights come with responsibility. Exercise both without infringing upon others to do the same.

    Constitution Class taught by Michael Badnarik : Michael Badnarik : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

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    Benny1636 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    This is a visceral argument on a number of gun websites with some claiming that a business opens its doors to the invitation of the public while other claiming as usmcj has in his post that a business is still a privately owned property and no different than someone's home when it comes to property rights. Regardless of how one may feel about this issue, it ultimately comes down to what the law in a given state says and it is prudent to know these laws if you are of a mind to carry a firearm. However, there is one fly in the ointment in this.

    Businesses can refuse service to most anyone for most any reason... unless you are a member of a "protected class", which is the ultimate governmental discrimination. It would be very interesting if a business attempted to have a person removed from their premises if he was carrying and happened to be black, or handicapped, or some other "protected class". I wonder how that would iron out.

    From my perspective, I am fully in support of private property rights for one simple reason. You cannot be free if you don't own property. So if you cannot exercise your chosen control over your property, you have lost a measure of freedom. This concept is straight from Jefferson and very eloquently elaborated upon by Michael Badnarik in his seven part class on the Constitution... seven hours which I highly recommend you folks take the time and watch (link provided below).

    You have two options when entering a business which is not friendly to the carrying of arms. Keep you mouth shut, your firearm concealed and go about your business. Or take your business elsewhere where it is appreciated. I am NOT advocating the first option, merely mentioning it. I make every effort to avoid businesses that post gun buster signs. Fortunately there are almost none in my area.

    While some may believe that their right to defend themselves trumps property rights, think about this for a moment. Do you have a right to march around in a store with protest signs, screaming your dissatisfaction with the store's policies in vulger and vile language? Of course not. So why would you think you have a right to carry a firearm onto someone's property against their wishes? Would you do this on a neighbor's lawn or in his home?

    The one thing that is cast is stone is rights come with responsibility. Exercise both without infringing upon others to do the same.

    Constitution Class taught by Michael Badnarik : Michael Badnarik : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
    I absolutly agree that on your property it is your right to say weather or not someone can have a firearm. Your property your rules. If someone doesnt believe in handguns thats their right. The original arguement that got him butthurt and caused him to make this irrelivent post was on a thread made for people to post businesses that dont want us (people who carry firearms). I posted that I went to purchase gas from a 7/11 (with no sign posted about firearms) I was open carrying and I offered the teller a 20$ bill and asked for 20$ in gas which I was denied. The teller told me I had a gun and I could be a robber so I had to leave and I couldnt have my gas. I then left and never returned. I posted about this gas station in the "Businesses that dont want us" thread to which the above poster then replied if I was open carrying I had it coming. And that he concealed carries to said gas station all the time without a problem. And that I need to use common sense bla bla bla. After pointing out that my post was revelevent to the thread, above poster got butthurt and made this thread, which, isnt even relevent to the original argument, seeing as how no one was argueing that a business didnt have the right to not allow you to carry, but rather that you didnt have to patronize their establisment if they didnt allow you to exercise your rights. And I find it ironic that he admits to carrying himself in said gas station while at the same time saying that they had the right to kick me out for carrying because I was open carrying. Implying that they ONLY kicked me out for open carrying as opposed to having a handgun on me at all. Which is not the case as the employee did not say "Cover your firearm and you can have your gas", he instead said "You have a gun". In other words, everything is irrelivent and it all boils down to above poster is a proponent of concealed carry only and thinks anyone who open carrys is failing to use "Common sense" as he puts it. So instead of going about his merry way and letting people do as they please (within the boundries of the law) he choses to criticise he fellow handgun enthusiasts because he fails to realize we live in a world where his opinions and beliefs arent law. Thus making him a nazi.

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    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny1636 View Post
    I absolutly agree that on your property it is your right to say weather or not someone can have a firearm. Your property your rules. If someone doesnt believe in handguns thats their right. The original arguement that got him butthurt and caused him to make this irrelivent post was on a thread made for people to post businesses that dont want us (people who carry firearms). I posted that I went to purchase gas from a 7/11 (with no sign posted about firearms) I was open carrying and I offered the teller a 20$ bill and asked for 20$ in gas which I was denied. The teller told me I had a gun and I could be a robber so I had to leave and I couldnt have my gas. I then left and never returned. I posted about this gas station in the "Businesses that dont want us" thread to which the above poster then replied if I was open carrying I had it coming. And that he concealed carries to said gas station all the time without a problem. And that I need to use common sense bla bla bla. After pointing out that my post was revelevent to the thread, above poster got butthurt and made this thread, which, isnt even relevent to the original argument, seeing as how no one was argueing that a business didnt have the right to not allow you to carry, but rather that you didnt have to patronize their establisment if they didnt allow you to exercise your rights. And I find it ironic that he admits to carrying himself in said gas station while at the same time saying that they had the right to kick me out for carrying because I was open carrying. Implying that they ONLY kicked me out for open carrying as opposed to having a handgun on me at all. Which is not the case as the employee did not say "Cover your firearm and you can have your gas", he instead said "You have a gun". In other words, everything is irrelivent and it all boils down to above poster is a proponent of concealed carry only and thinks anyone who open carrys is failing to use "Common sense" as he puts it. So instead of going about his merry way and letting people do as they please (within the boundries of the law) he choses to criticise he fellow handgun enthusiasts because he fails to realize we live in a world where his opinions and beliefs arent law. Thus making him a nazi.
    I fully agree and concur with the part I bolded. I am a member of another gun website where we do post the names of businesses that are not friendly to folks who carry. I am also a member of the finest gun rights group in my state, Virginia Citizens Defense League, and that organization has a page on their website which names anti-gun businesses so that we may know where not to spend our money. This falls under the heading of responsibility.

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