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  1. #1
    Wyatt's Avatar
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    Question about the "CA Approved List"

    I was looking through the list and notice that most of the approvals expire at various times in 2008, some in 2009. I suppose the approvals are only good for a couple of years before the guns have to be re-tested and certified.

    Here's the question. Does anyone know if the guns currently on the list, since they are currently approved, be re-approved after their expirations if they are without magazine disconnects?

    I mean, unless most of the manufacturers add this, which it doesn't look like they are interested in doing, there is going to be a drastic drop-off in the number of guns approved for sale in California. I'm talking a HUGE drop-off.

    Also, say you have a CCW and currently have approved for carry a gun without a magazine disconnect. When your license comes up for renewal, will the gun now not be approved?

    BTW, for those interested, here's a link to the list:

    http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

    Notice how many expire in 2008. Example: I'm looking at the Kahr PM9093 and 90904. They expire in June and August of 2008. I do not know that Kahr is going to add a mag disconnect to these guns. Without mag disconnects, almost every gun will be illegal for sale within a year or so. This sucks! Essentially this would amount to a defacto abolishment of handguns.

    Has anyone heard about the industry as a whole either planning on adding the disconnect, or is the industry more or less just writing off California as a market?

  2. #2
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    I haven't heard anything about requiring a magazine disconnect. Where can I find info?

  3. #3
    Wyatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patient_Zero View Post
    I haven't heard anything about requiring a magazine disconnect. Where can I find info?
    First off, section 12125 of the California Penal Code says:

    12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
    manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
    for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
    any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
    jail not exceeding one year.


    See section 12126, #5 of the California Penal Code (section 12126 defines what is considered an "unsafe handgun"):

    (5) Commencing January 1, 2007, for all center-fire semiautomatic pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131, it does not have both a chamber load indicator and if it has a detachable magazine, a magazine disconnect mechanism.

    Here's the link to the complete penal code:

    http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen.html

    The question involves where it says "pistols that are not already listed on the roster". If you look at the approved list of guns, the certification of most of these weapons expire at various times in 2008. Will they be re-certified without the mag disconnect? My understanding is no, but I suppose this is not definitive. If they will be re-certified w/o the disconnect then at least those guns currently on the list may be re-certified. But certainly all the new models coming out will not be allowed for sale in CA without the disconnect. I heard this straight from a FFL dealer. He said forget about all the new stuff you see in the magazines, they won't be legal because, with few exceptions, they don't have mag disconnects.

    Here's the link to the Roster of approved handguns (note how many expire in 2008):

    http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/
    Last edited by Wyatt; 03-18-2008 at 08:56 PM.

  4. #4
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    Thanks for the info. I could be wrong, but if you look at the Smith & Wesson list, specifically the Sigma, the SW40VE is certified until 1/31/09. It appears that the certifications are renewed yearly. If that is in fact the case, then they should still be legal. If the SW40VE was recertified on 1/31/08, then it was done after the 1/1/07 date, and there is no magazine disconnect.

    Again, I could be wrong, but I hope that helps.

  5. #5
    Wyatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patient_Zero View Post
    Thanks for the info. I could be wrong, but if you look at the Smith & Wesson list, specifically the Sigma, the SW40VE is certified until 1/31/09. It appears that the certifications are renewed yearly. If that is in fact the case, then they should still be legal. If the SW40VE was recertified on 1/31/08, then it was done after the 1/1/07 date, and there is no magazine disconnect.

    Again, I could be wrong, but I hope that helps.
    That is a good point and I don't know how long a cert is good for. As you mentioned, even if it is recertified every 2 years, then that particular gun would have been last certed on 1/31/07, which is still after the law went into effect on 1/1/07. I'm guessing that the cert is good for three years and that's why the Sigma is good to 1/31/09 (I don't know how long that model has been on the market).

    The reason I think this is, if you go back to the link for the roster, look down the page and you'll see two other links: one for recently added guns, and 1 for recently decertified guns. There are only three guns on the "added" list, only two of them pistols. Now check the dropped list, there are a ton of guns on it, including the Sig P220 and the Ruger P90. Why weren't these guns recertified?

    So, I still think it appears the guns now on the list will likely not be re-certed when they expire unless they comply with the new laws. I've looked on the DOJ website but so far have not been able to find where it specifies how long a cert is good for.

    So, in my mind, the question remains whether a gun currently on the list will be recertified under the "old rules" rather than the new, more restrictive rules now in effect. I still tend to think the new laws apply, and the list will shrink significantly in the next couple of years.

    If this is the case, I'm sort of stuck. I'm not going to run out to purchase a gun to beat it's expiration, because I'm interested in a gun for carry. If it doesn't get recertified then I'm sure when my CCW expires in two years and I go to renew it, I would no longer be able to carry that particular gun. I'm not running out to spend $500 on a gun that I can't use for it's intended purpose after 2 years.

  6. #6
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    Well, I just found a couple of things on the DOJ website. First, you are correct that the certification is valid for one year. However, I am correct in that the testing procedures say that the gun must have a magazine disconnect before it can even be accepted for certification testing. So as to the Sigma, I don't know why it would have been re-certified, but it does appear that all guns must meet the new regulations.

    Go here and click on Chapter 5: Lab/Handgun Certification:

    http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/

    On page 13 under "Testing Procedures" / #2: it clearly states that starting 1/1/07 the lab shall accept the gun for testing only after it determines it has a mag disconnect.

    On page 22, item (a) it says the cert is good for one year.

  7. #7
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    The great thing about living in Kalifornia is how well informed they keep the peasantry. Notice how the most current information you can find is from over a year ago? Makes me want jump the border...into Arizona. My post crossed yours somewhere on the intarweb. What makes me nervous about that DOJ info is that I bought my Sigma this year, no disconnect.



    Wait, scratch that. I'm enlightened. (c)(1) Commencing January 1, 2006, the DOJ-Certified Laboratory shall conduct the required testing of a center-fire semiautomatic pistol only after ascertaining the firearm has a functioning chamber load indicator or a functioning magazine disconnect mechanism.

    We can both sleep soundly, my Sigma has a loaded chamber indicator, and according to page 20 of the Universal Kahr Manual...


    "Extractor as a Loaded Chamber Indicator

    The extractor on all Kahr pistols protrudes outward from the surface of the slide when the properly designated caliber ammunition marked on the barrel is loaded in the chamber. The extractor is located on the right side of the slide directly behind the ejection port (see photo #14). The extractor protrusion allows the extractor to be used as a loaded chamber indicator (LCI). The extractor protrusion permits visual and tactile (felt) confirmation of a chambered round."

    Although I copied that word for word from the manual, Here's a link to the full manual in PDF http://www.kahr.com/DL/kahrmanual.pdf

  8. #8
    Wyatt's Avatar
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    Some piece of the puzzle is definitely missing. I own a Beretta, bought pre-ban. But the 92FS is still on the list until later this year. I don't believe this firearm has been equipped with a disconnect either, so why would it be on the list if it was last certified sometime after 1/1/07 (given the cert is only good for 1 year). Given that the cert period is only 1 year, there are alot of guns for sale in California without disconnects that have '08 expirations indicating that they were last certified after 1/1/07, so I don't get it.

    This is frustrating.
    Last edited by Wyatt; 03-19-2008 at 02:15 AM.

  9. #9
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    I went to close the DOJ page after my last edit and noticed the paragraph after the one I quoted requires BOTH after 1/1/07. I quoted 1/1/06. Since the state of CA likes to keep us in the dark until they turn on the flashing blue light, I emailed Smith & Wesson and asked them about it. I've never had to wait more than 12 hours for a response from them, so I should have more info tomorrow. In the meantime, if you find anything else, let me know.

  10. #10
    Wyatt's Avatar
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    Yeah, they required the chamber indicator in 2006 then tightened the screws more by requiring BOTH the indicator AND the disconnect as of 1/1/07. I didn't mention the 2006 regulation in my post since it was over-ridden by the '07 rule.

    Let me know what S&W tells you. I'd be particularly interested in when the SW40VE was last certified and, if after 1/1/07, how or why it was approved without the disconnect.

  11. #11
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    Nothing from S&W yet. I'm going to talk to my dealer this weekend anyway, so if I haven't heard anything my then, I'll ask her. That's not a typo, I said HER.

  12. #12
    Wyatt's Avatar
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    Well, I recently looked at the approved list again and it appears more guns are now certified into 2009, including the Kahr PM9 that I've been interested in. This gun has been re-certified for another year.

    So it appears there is good news in that guns that are already on the list can be re-certified without the mag disconnect. This would explain your S&W.

    I suppose this means as long as a particular model that is on the list continues to be produced and continues to be re-submitted for certification, it will not need the disconnect.

    To bad about all the new models everyone is coming out with that I drool over. I might as well just wipe my mouth and shoot what I've got.

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