Why so much doubt with Bersa

I have been looking for a CCW .45 for some time. I have looked (and shot) the glock, colt, ruger & S/W all great guns. However, I have not been able to fine a bersa thunder 45 to rent. All the ranges have stated they don't rent because of reliability. All the research I have done there is very little negative feedback on the Bersa irregardless of cal. My question is why is there so much bad talk about the Bersa? Most of the negative statments are mad from IMO are people who think they can shoot but really dont know how. I know I will catch crap for that but it is true. And for the record I am an ex-cop, ex-military, and was on the Air Force EST teams as a sniper. So I think I know how to shoot and shoot well. Your responses are welcomed

I have/had a Bersa 380 until my wife took it for her full time CCW. Never had any issues with reliability at all. Many people equate inexpensive with "cheap" and aren't looking past multi-thousand round range session reviews to see other types of value in what they might buy. Some guns are not made to have thousands of rounds poured through them. You will see Kel Tecs get the same bad rap but those on this forum who know better carry them all the time as pocket guns. Store owners will also steer you away from these less expensive models to sell the name brands at higher margins. You are right to ask for reviews here. You will get honest commentary from experienced owners.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dsig1

Many people equate inexpensive with "cheap" and aren't looking past multi-thousand round range session reviews to see other types of value in what they might buy. Some guns are not made to have thousands of rounds poured through them. You will see Kel Tecs get the same bad rap but those on this forum who know better carry them all the time as pocket guns. Store owners will also steer you away from these less expensive models to sell the name brands at higher margins. You are right to ask for reviews here. You will get honest commentary from experienced owners.

---

+1 to all of that :smt033

I especially agree with the fact that people view inexpensive as "cheap". I personally haven't heard anything bad about any of the Bersa models, although I don't know anyone who owns a .45 Bersa. People with more experience with Bersa will chime in I'm sure :smt1099

-Jeff-

I have no doubt about Bersa. It took a while for me to find a local dealer who had some Thunder 9's in stock. The range I use has many rentals, including a Bersa with (at that time) over 5,000 rounds on it. I bought a Bersa without ever having fired a shot through one. More than 3,000 flawless rounds through two Bersa pistols later I have never regretted that decision. Doubt if you will either.

I think alot of the people who purchase Bersa firearms tend to be new to guns and are attracted to the low price, Many people who are new to guns don't understand how to break them in, clean, and maintain them properly all of which will lead to reliability issues. My wife has a .380cc and she loves it. We would definitly buy Bersa again.

I spoke to a store owner in PA today about Bersa (and other lower cost models). He said that the ATF routinely hassles gun store owners about the paperwork for these low cost firearms. He showed me what amounted to an ATF "hit list" for these inexpensive guns. Bersa, Kel Tec, Astra, Star...It seems as they are essentially a hassle to inventory for shop owners so it can be tough to find some of them under the glass in the store. This scrutiny doesn't outwardly seem to transfer to the eventual buyer but my guess is that the ATF keeps a special record of persons who purchase these guns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drew_Rami_P

I think alot of the people who purchase Bersa firearms tend to be new to guns and are attracted to the low price, Many people who are new to guns don't understand how to break them in, clean, and maintain them properly all of which will lead to reliability issues.

---

That's an interesting way to look at it. Good point Drew.

-Jeff-

I wouldn't rent them if I were a gun shop owner. They're under 300$, so not much of a markup. They're reliable, so no smithing charges. They also might make someone go, "why don't I just get that one for 350.00 instead of this $1400.00 Springfield 1911 (now there's a gun you can make some money on.

Bersas haven't been adopted (or, to the best of my knowledge, even tested) by any major military or law enforcement agency. This means that objective, easily accessible test results don't exist. Thus, their short- and long-term reliability and durability are in question.

I know that they've been tested by gun rags, but gun rag "tests" seldom expend more than a couple of hundred rounds, and tend to gloss over any failures anyway.

And I know lots of people on the internet post about their excellent Bersas. But once again, we almost invariably see opinions based on low round counts, usually just a couple hundred rounds. I think this may be partially because serious shooters who expend lots of ammo are generally attracted to guns with longer and deeper track records than Bersa can currently produce.

While Bersas may indeed be excellent, long lived, totally reliable pistols, I haven't seen anything that objectively establishes such. I can, however, easily access test results with multiple sample guns firing thousands (or tens of thousands) of rounds with Beretta, Glock, SIG, HK, and S&W, for example.

I'm not saying Bersas are bad pistols at all - I know several people who are very pleased with their Bersa .380s. But I think this is why you see "doubt" about them. When someone takes thirty randomly selected Bersas and puts 10,000 rounds through each of them, then reports mean rounds between failure, number of broken parts if any, and accuracy before and after...well, then I will start taking them seriously as service pistols (assuming they survive the test).

And I think I have a reasonable idea of how to shoot, and what good shooting looks like. :mrgreen:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Barham

I can, however, easily access test results with multiple sample guns firing thousands (or tens of thousands) of rounds with Beretta, Glock, SIG, HK, and S&W, for example.

---

You forgot XD! :goofy::anim_lol::anim_lol:

I definitely agree though, and I wouldn't mind seeing tests like that with some Bersa models simply out of curiosity.

-Jeff-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BeefyBeefo

You forgot XD!

---

I intentionally left the XD off the list because I am unaware of such tests. Do you have a link to any?

I know people here think I hate XDs, but I actually think it's a very good pistol (just not quite as good as another that shall remain nameless). I would very much like to see some objective tests on it, though, with multiple gun samples and high round counts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Barham

I intentionally left the XD off the list because I am unaware of such tests. Do you have a link to any?

---

http://springfield-armory.primediaou.../SPstory11.php
I know this is posted on the springfield site, but this is the only one that I know of as of right now. I'm sure it might be a little biased :smt083, and it's not a multiple gun test, but that's the one I have bookmarked :mrgreen: I'll have to do a search and see if I can find any others. Interesting point though, as this is not a multiple gun test.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Barham

I know people here think I hate XDs, but I actually think it's a very good pistol (just not quite as good as another that shall remain nameless).

---

:anim_lol:

-Jeff-

Wife luv's her BERSA T380.

Not many rounds thru it though. I bought it for her as a CCW she can carry, but she picked it out.

She has had 3 "stove-piping" in the last 350 rnds......but I attribute them to the wife relaxing her grip and limp wristing.

I personally haven't had any particular issues when I shoot it. Took some adjusting to get it sighted in though.

My observartions:

PROS:
1. cost $$$$$
2. good CCW size
3. safety features
4. Very accutate at 8-10 yrds

CONS:
1. Caliber size in .380 (for me)
2. Hard on the hands after 60+ rounds
3. Field stripping is a challenge

oh......not a con of the actual gun......extra mags are HARD to find.

I personally decided to go w/XD9sc as my CCW.

Good luck:smt023

Heh, that article was originally from Handguns magazine. I wonder how big the Springfield ad was in that issue? :mrgreen:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Barham

Heh, that article was originally from Handguns magazine. I wonder how big the Springfield ad was in that issue? :mrgreen:

---

:anim_lol: I thought you might like that one. I have actually searched and not found any others. Interesting, considering they're trying to compete with Glock the most (atleast it seems that way :numbchuck:). You'd think with as long as they've been out, you'd have some independents carrying out tests very similar to Glock tests. Maybe I just can't find them, but I tried and didn't really see any others. I'll just put 20,000 through mine and see...nevermind then I wouldn't be able to clean it like a freak....but it could be 20,000 through a clean gun! :smt033 :smt082 If anyone else has any links to other tests, I'd be interested to see.

-Jeff-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BeefyBeefo

:anim_lol: I thought you might like that one. I have actually searched and not found any others. Interesting, considering they're trying to compete with Glock the most (atleast it seems that way :numbchuck:). You'd think with as long as they've been out, you'd have some independents carrying out tests very similar to Glock tests. Maybe I just can't find them, but I tried and didn't really see any others. I'll just put 20,000 through mine and see...nevermind then I wouldn't be able to clean it like a freak....but it could be 20,000 through a clean gun! :smt033 :smt082 If anyone else has any links to other tests, I'd be interested to see.

-Jeff-

---

I am seriously thinking of dropping the 2500 bucks it would cost to do a real independent test on an XD-9. I have worked with the State of New Mexico to develop several measurement tools in regards to testing students in tobacco, alcohol and drug consumption so I have a bit of history in the field of testing. I have gone so far as to contact my local range and Riclin firearms (Our local gun school) to see what kind of help I could get in facilities and supervision and they love the idea. My next step is to contact some ammunition production companies to see if I could get a brake on the ammo to do the test. I know I’m dreaming but I would love to put 20,000 rounds down range over the course of 6 months and really put an XD through its paces.

As far as the Bersa My wife has a Bersa Thunder .380 and it is extremely reliable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joeshwa24

I am seriously thinking of dropping the 2500 bucks it would cost to do a real independent test on an XD-9. I have worked with the State of New Mexico to develop several measurement tools in regards to testing students in tobacco, alcohol and drug consumption so I have a bit of history in the field of testing. I have gone so far as to contact my local range and Riclin firearms (Our local gun school) to see what kind of help I could get in facilities and supervision and they love the idea. My next step is to contact some ammunition production companies to see if I could get a brake on the ammo to do the test. I know I’m dreaming but I would love to put 20,000 rounds down range over the course of 6 months and really put an XD through its paces.

---

That would be amazing and I would love to see it/read reports. I have a feeling the XD could stand up to the tests Glocks have been put through. Good luck with the process and definitely keep us updated! :smt1099

-Jeff-

That would be an interesting test, but it still wouldn't hold a candle to the testing some other guns have gone through. Glock, Beretta, SIG...these have all had hundreds of sample guns put the wringer with tens of thousands of round each in military and LE testing. One gun is a good start, but it's still not much a sample size.

How many rounds do you have through the wife's Bersa .380?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Barham

That would be an interesting test, but it still wouldn't hold a candle to the testing some other guns have gone through. Glock, Beretta, SIG...these have all had hundreds of sample guns put the wringer with tens of thousands of round each in military and LE testing. One gun is a good start, but it's still not much a sample size.

How many rounds do you have through the wife's Bersa .380?

---

Mike,
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that I have heard these arguments before. Oh, can't remember 10 or so years ago, when this new Austrian pistol hit the U.S. market? :smt033
Are your points invalid? No. Everyone starts somewhere is my point.

And while this is not a test, the results of this, mmmm, experience, are heartening.
http://www.handgunforum.net/springfield/7111-xd9-after-10-000-rounds-lots-pics.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Barham

That would be an interesting test, but it still wouldn't hold a candle to the testing some other guns have gone through. Glock, Beretta, SIG...these have all had hundreds of sample guns put the wringer with tens of thousands of round each in military and LE testing. One gun is a good start, but it's still not much a sample size.

How many rounds do you have through the wife's Bersa .380?

---

Yeah its true you really cant get that kind of testing unless your pistol gets put into intensive service. The Wifes bersa has just over 1000 rounds. I know its not that much but not a failure yet.

More like 25 years ago on the Glock. But the Glock was pretty well field-proven in five or so years, and had been tested (in multiples) by numerous military organization, including the vaunted GSG-9, and was quickly adopted by LE agencies. I remember Miami causing a big stir when it was one of the first big American agencies to chose the Glock.

Neither the XD nor the Bersa has been adopted on such a scale, and both have been on the market for quite a while. If you include the HS2000 years, the XD now has now been around for nine years, and has nowhere near the depth and breadth of the Glock's track record at that same point in Glock production history. Bersas have been around as long as I can remember, and they too lack a substantial track record as service pistols thus far.

Some guns define the manufacturer.

Bersa is known for the Thunder .380.
Kel-Tec is known for the P-3AT.

Unfortunately, like an actor who has one long lived wildly successful role, these companies have been stereotyped by their most popular product. They are victims of their own success. When you want a deep cover, small .380 CCW these are the products that make the list. But when you need a more serious service pistol, you look elsewhere.

Are their products any good in larger calibers? I wouldn't know. I don't know anyone who has one. But if you need a small .380....

I have a Bersa 380 CC model. It is as finicky as you can get with ammo. It will only feed Hornaday JHP so far and WWB FMJ. Everything else I tried is jam-o-matic. Now normally I would say it is just the gun but a fried of mine has the Bersa 380 full size and it is just as finicky. I trust it with the right ammo but other then that it is my last Bersa 380. When the Ruger LCP 380 hits the stores I will be all over that.

Another friend of mine has the Bersa 9MM and that thing shoots great. I would buy one of them in a minute if I wanted one but I have enough 9mm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Barham

More like 25 years ago on the Glock. But the Glock was pretty well field-proven in five or so years, and had been tested (in multiples) by numerous military organization, including the vaunted GSG-9, and was quickly adopted by LE agencies. I remember Miami causing a big stir when it was one of the first big American agencies to chose the Glock.

Neither the XD nor the Bersa has been adopted on such a scale, and both have been on the market for quite a while. If you include the HS2000 years, the XD now has now been around for nine years, and has nowhere near the depth and breadth of the Glock's track record at that same point in Glock production history. Bersas have been around as long as I can remember, and they too lack a substantial track record as service pistols thus far.

---

I totally understand this point and it is both valid and true. However, In a world of budget cuts and a "If it aint broke" attitude the XD never had a chance. I think that the XD is just as good as a glock, there’s about as much "Proof" out there that XD's are better than glocks as there is "Proof" that they are worse. What I am trying to say is you can no more definitely say that XD’s are a lesser pistol than the Glock than you can definitively say that they are a greater pistol than the Glock. The point being that the XD is just as reliable as a glock and beyond that it’s personal preference.

I don't know how one can definitively say the XD is, overall, as reliable as the Glock in the absence of actual objective evidence that it is.

I think the XD is a fine pistol, but it doesn't have nearly the track record that the Glock does, and hasn't been put through nearly the multiple wringers the Glock has. The info we have on the XD so far comes mainly from the results of a few tests conducted by amateurs on single specimens of the gun. That's a pretty far cry from the mounds of testing done on Glocks by professional militaries and LE agencies.

And the Glock has a lower bore axis and a shorter trigger reset. :mrgreen: