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  1. #41
    submoa is offline Member
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    NP Mike,

    I get pretty riled up about instances where new weapons get rushed into service because of politics. M9 was one example. M16 before they chrome lined the bores and issued cleaning kits is another. The SA80 is the worst not only because they replaced the L1A1 SLR with a total POS, but because it took 18 years before they brought in HK in to fix it (L85A2 upgrade).

    In the software industry Version 1.0 syndrome means a reboot. In military procurement, Version 1.0 gets people killed or maimed.

  2. #42
    WoodLark's Avatar
    WoodLark is offline Junior Member
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    Ssshhhh! Don't tell anyone how good the Bersa's are; its hard enough now to find magazines for them.

    I have both the 9UC and 45UC. The 9 has been totally trouble free right out of the box. The 45 had some feeding problems initially, but has been getting better as it breaks in. Surprisingly it had less problems with hollow points (Taurus Hex) than with ball (WWB).

  3. #43
    Longtooths is offline Junior Member
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    What is this thread about again, hmmm lets look....


    Quote Originally Posted by bryan1966 View Post
    I have been looking for a CCW .45 for some time. I have looked (and shot) the glock, colt, ruger & S/W all great guns. However, I have not been able to fine a bersa thunder 45 to rent. All the ranges have stated they don't rent because of reliability. All the research I have done there is very little negative feedback on the Bersa irregardless of cal. My question is why is there so much bad talk about the Bersa? Most of the negative statments are mad from IMO are people who think they can shoot but really dont know how. I know I will catch crap for that but it is true. And for the record I am an ex-cop, ex-military, and was on the Air Force EST teams as a sniper. So I think I know how to shoot and shoot well. Your responses are welcomed

    When i was looking to purchase a small inexpensive back up gun I stumbled accross the Bersa and the P3at. My father-in-law purchased one first and noted that he liked it fairly well. I have a chance to shoot it and liked it very much. Therefore I made my decision to buy one and have never looked back. I wish I could honestly say that I don't care what others think about guns and that I make my own decisions. But that would be incorrect. I listen to what others say, and at most they will cause me to shoot a gun first before deciding on it.

    I am happy with both of my Bersa Thunder .380's as well as my Bersa .380CC model. I fluff, buff and clean my guns religiously and have had no failures of any kind on all three.

  4. #44
    firestorm40 is offline Junior Member
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    just so you guys know the buenos aires police carry the bersa and so do some of the argentinian police agencies. just a little bit of info

  5. #45
    BJElliott is offline Junior Member
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    That was probably the best answer to a question I have been wondering for a long time! Thanks pal! BJ

  6. #46
    tnjack is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Bersas haven't been adopted (or, to the best of my knowledge, even tested) by any major military or law enforcement agency. This means that objective, easily accessible test results don't exist. Thus, their short- and long-term reliability and durability are in question.





    The company was founded in the mid 1950's by Italian immigrants Benso Bonadimani, Ercole Montini and Savino Caselli, all of them mechanical engineers. Montini worked for Beretta in Italy. At the beginning they were producing parts for the now defunct Argentinian arms manufacturer Ballester Molina. Their first handgun was a modified version of a Ballester model which they called "Luan", combining the first two letters of the last names of the 2 designers of the pistol, Luce and Antonovich. The gun didn't have much commercial success and very few of them were produced; nowadays they are quite rare collector's items.


    The Modelo 62, one of the early BERSAs
    BERSA Rifle cal. 22 LR
    BERSA ShotgunsIn 1959 the first 22 Long Rifle pistol was commercialized, called "Modelo 60", which later evolved in the "Modelo 62", and based on a modified Beretta design, it sold extremely well. In 1960 the name "BERSA" was finally introduced, it is made up from the initial letters of the founder's first names. Many more successful models in increasingly more powerful calibers were produced in the following years, making BERSA a well known and respected name in the firearms world. In 1989 the first full size combat pistol was introduced, the Model 90, chambered for the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge.

    In 1994 a new model name for the entire production line was introduced, "Thunder", followed by a number indicating the handgun caliber. However the Thunder series in reality include two totally different designs in mechanics and appearances; for cartridges up to and included the 380 ACP the handguns are compact in size (except for the Thunder 22-6 which is a 22 LR target competition pistol with a 6" barrel) and based on a blowback system, for more powerful rounds, starting with the 9x19mm Parabellum, the Thunder line is based on a locked breech and short recoil modified Browning design.

    At the end of the 1990s BERSA won the contract for supplying a new standard sideram for the Argentina Armed Forces and Argentina Federal Police that were looking to replace their aging Browning Hi-Power pistols. The BERSA Thunder 9, an evolution of the Model 90, was chosen.

    In the past BERSA also produced 22 Long Rifle caliber long guns and single and double barreled shotguns but they did not have the same commercial success of the pistols and they have been discontinued.


    [edit] Overview
    BERSA is nowadays one of the largest privately owned corporations in Argentina. It produces, among many handguns, the very popular BERSA Thunder 380 and the BERSA Thunder 9 pistols and the Utra Compact series of the Thunder chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. The company is well known among firearm enthusiasts for producing high quality guns at very reasonable prices and it spends very little money on advertisement. Lifetime warranty coverage is provided to the original owners. However, firearms made by such companies can cost as much as twice or more compared to a BERSA pistol in the same caliber and with similar features. The Argentine company is often influenced by the German firearms manufacturer Walther in the design of its handguns; the Thunder 22, 32 and 380 are basically clones of the famous Walther PP and PPK while the Thunder 9 and 40 are somewhat similar in appearance and some mechanical aspects to the Walther P88. For many products in the past, a similar source of technical "inspiration" was Beretta. The full size Thunder combat pistol is the standard sidearm of the Argentina Armed Forces (Thunder 9), Argentina Federal Police (Thunder 9), Buenos Aires Provincial Police (Thunder 9) and several other Law Enforcement agencies (Thunder 9 & 40).


    The Model 90 Combat Pistol, forerunner of the Thunder 9
    BERSA Thunder 22-6 cal. 22 Long RifleThe Thunder 22 pistol chambered for the 22 Long Rifle cartridge is widely used among recreational shooters in Latin America and the Thunder 22-6, a longer and thicker barrel version of this handgun, is used in more serious competitions. Team BERSA, equipped with Thunder 9 and Thunder 40 pistols, has won several IPSC matches. The Thunder 32 and 380 handguns sell very well in countries that ban the use of more powerful cartridges for civilian personal defense purposes. The Thunder 380 is immensely popular in the US market as a small and light, easy concealable, high quality and competitively priced personal defense handgun.

    I think this should answer your question about military use and/or reliability.

  7. #47
    HvyMtl is offline Junior Member
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    Thumbs up

    TNjack - as in the Bersa talk member?

    Hello. HvyMtl

    Anyway, I own a Ultra Compact 45 Bersa. The deal it this - $350 - comes with 2 magazines

    The issue I think relates to the older versions of the model which had one spring instead of the dual springs they have now.

    True, you can buy a Taurus for around $299, but it is not set up for ambidexterous (spelling not strong point) use out of the box.

    I like the dual action safety/decocker and the grip design.

    I am no strongman - far from it, but I can easily one hand this with either hand.

    I believe it is a little to do with the gun snobbery out there.

    Yes, I have fired a Sig Sauer, Browning, and I have fired a $3k 1911 Caspian. I like my Bersa better.

    Don't expect the fit and finish of a $600+ handgun. Expect it to work.

  8. #48
    nelskc is offline Member
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    My understanding of XD's is that they have been used extensively by the Croatian military and Croatian polices forces as of the late 90's (assuming it is the same product basic product that is imported and sold in the US). I would be curious to see if those agencies conducted high round counts or torture tests like have been performed on Glocks.

  9. #49
    oak1971's Avatar
    oak1971 is offline Member
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    Buy what suits you, and shoot the piss out of it. End of test. Duh.

  10. #50
    curly is offline Junior Member
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    I own two Bersa pistols, a .380 and a Thunder .380 and really like them. As far as reliability, any issues that I have had with them are my lack of proper cleaning. The main reason I bought my first Bersa was because of how well the pistol fit my hand..... I was sold instantly. I added a set of rubber finger-groove grips (factory grips) and that even made them feel better IMO.

    On a side note, where is the best <cheapest> place to get a factory clip for a Thunder .380?

  11. #51
    IndyRob's Avatar
    IndyRob is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by curly View Post
    On a side note, where is the best <cheapest> place to get a factory clip for a Thunder .380?
    It's a magazine, not a clip But seriously, I've found mags for Bersa's for $26.95 @
    yourgunparts.com

    & $27.97 @ gunsatcost.com

  12. #52
    jediwebdude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    I don't know how one can definitively say the XD is, overall, as reliable as the Glock in the absence of actual objective evidence that it is.

    I think the XD is a fine pistol, but it doesn't have nearly the track record that the Glock does, and hasn't been put through nearly the multiple wringers the Glock has. The info we have on the XD so far comes mainly from the results of a few tests conducted by amateurs on single specimens of the gun. That's a pretty far cry from the mounds of testing done on Glocks by professional militaries and LE agencies.

    And the Glock has a lower bore axis and a shorter trigger reset.
    I realize that this is an old discussion, but I couldn't resist replying. When I was at a gun store last year and was looking at a Glock 9mm with composite underbody, the salesman pulled an XD-9 out of the case and said "let's compare." He took both pistols apart and showed me differences in construction. The XD appeared to be better built and more durable, so I purchased it. I realize that the information provided to me by the salesman is no substitute for long-term durability testing, but I do feel more confident shooting the XD in the range because of the differences he pointed out.

    -PJ

  13. #53
    mharveyww1 is offline Junior Member
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    ANY manufacturer can turn out a lemon.

    Re: the Springfield Armory post.

    Just yesterday I read an online rant by a very unhappy new owner of a Springfield 9mm EMP. Trust me - if I had a $1,000+ handgun that was as troublesome as his...I'd be ranting too!
    But, just a few days before, I had bought [I]my own[I] 9mm EMP and put over 500 trouble-free, nearly-joyous rounds through it.
    It may turn out to be the most satisfying handgun I've ever owned (and I've owned well over 100).

    So what is the typical owner experience with a Springfield Armory handgun?
    I tend to think that the unhappy owner simply got a "lemon". Somehow it slipped through QC. Otherwise we wouldn't see so many prospective buyers shelling out the kind of $$$ it takes to get one of their top-of-the-line 1911's.

    I can also directly relate to the Bersa "question", having bought a .380CC for my wife about a year ago. It seemed to have at least one FTE per magazine!
    Just as I was about to trade it in, another Bersa owner urged me to hold off until I had put a couple-hundred rounds through it. Since my wife loved the fit and feel of the gun, I grudgingly agreed to do so.
    Wonder of wonders! Some time shortly after 200 rounds the Bersa began to function flawlessly...and it continues to do so.

    And, ironically, JUST TODAY I was in one of the largest gun stores in the area
    (Central Florida) and a rather elderly couple was looking for a "small gun for self-defense". The salesman was pitching them on a Ruger LCP...for $500!!!
    Aside from the price, the couple said it just didn't feel right in their hands.
    I suggested they take a look at the Bersa .380.
    The salesman [I]refused to even show them one[I]! He said "no, they're just junk". I asked, if that's the case why they would SELL "junk"?
    He threw up his hands and walked away!!!
    The couple decided to shop elsewhere.

    Mike

  14. #54
    Atltech's Avatar
    Atltech is offline Junior Member
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    Cool

    I own a 380 Plus and have no problem staking my life on it.To date I have shot about 500 rounds thru it with some jamming issues when it was new.
    This seems to be a common complaint for most small caliber CC pistols.
    After it was "broke in" it has performed perfectly every shot.
    I can feed just about any brand of ammo with no complaints.It does what it was designed to do very well.
    I trust this weapon,I don't like the current price of .380 AUTO ammo.
    For what it's worth,my friends have all had similar experences with their "other"
    brand of guns.Actually my Bersa seems to be the less finickey of the bunch..
    Go fiqure...

  15. #55
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    I've never shot a Bersa, but I did hold a 45ACP Thunder about a month ago. I must confess it sure did feel like a whole lot of gun for $350 and I'm sure they can be had for cheaper. Hell, I was tempted to buy it in the hopes it would suffer from some feeding issues so I could turn it into a gunsmithing project!

    At any rate, it had a tight fit and was plenty comfortable. It's also among the few ranks of compact firearms with a safety (at least it sure looked like a manual safety). Assuming it doesn't have reliability issues, it's a steal at $350 to obtain a concealable weapon like this.

  16. #56
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    Benevolentshooter is offline Junior Member
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    I recently took my wife to the range for the first time and she instantly fell in love with shooting. When we returned home she began to search the internet for a gun she could carry. After a couple of days she came to me with this add for a bersa thunder 380. In the two weeks since she first shot we have returned to the range twice and she has learned alot about shooting(even out performing my novice shooting MALE friend. Who although i have told him otherwise seems to think that if he aims at the ground he will hit the target with the kick of the gun lol) At first all i could say is i have heard of bersa nothing good nothing bad just heard of them. Now after two weeks of research i am going to purchase the gun. Inexpensive does not always meen cheap, and inexpensive now dosent always meen inexpensive tommorow. If any of you remember in the early 90's you could get a russian made SKS for 100 bucks all day long now they retail where i live for 3 to 4 hundred. So i am getting my "cheap" gun now while they are still that way, and thanks to you guys im sure it will be a fine and dependable gun.
    Side note i didnt care for most of the keltek pistols too small too long on the trigger as would be expected. I dual purpse all my pistols for personal security and range fun. I just dont think the keltek would be range worthy.

  17. #57
    Benevolentshooter's Avatar
    Benevolentshooter is offline Junior Member
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    One more note. My brother is a cop and sometimes i go shooting with him and some of his friends. Now i was in the millitary but learned to shoot long before i joined for my 4 short years, and i only saw live amunition in a pistol 3 times during those years. At any rate by alot of your standards i would be considered an amature shooter and i consistently out shoot the "profesional" shooters (cops) all the time. Being a cop or in the millitary dosnt make you a great shooter practice does. and incidnetly there is no set regiment of pracitice in my brothers station which is a major metropolitan police station. Most of his friends see the range 4 to 10 times a year where as i shoot 2 to 4 times a month, so whos the amature shooter?

  18. #58
    nighthawk74 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by literaltrance View Post
    I've never shot a Bersa, but I did hold a 45ACP Thunder about a month ago. I must confess it sure did feel like a whole lot of gun for $350 and I'm sure they can be had for cheaper. Hell, I was tempted to buy it in the hopes it would suffer from some feeding issues so I could turn it into a gunsmithing project!

    At any rate, it had a tight fit and was plenty comfortable. It's also among the few ranks of compact firearms with a safety (at least it sure looked like a manual safety). Assuming it doesn't have reliability issues, it's a steal at $350 to obtain a concealable weapon like this.
    How was the recoil?

  19. #59
    AC_USMC 03 is offline Junior Member
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    honestly i hav enever heard of bersa maybe they do not advertise enough

  20. #60
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    clanger is offline Member
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    Why all the hate?

    Because a lot of Sheeple are 'gun snobs' running with the flock. Unless it's one of the pricey 'big 3', "it's junk", according to most 'group huggers' seeking interweb approvals.

    There's nothing that does not break. Sooner or later, everyting will fail. For one reason or another.

    We've got Bersa's, Rossi's, Taurus', FireStorm's as well as high-end stuff. They are all more accurate than most can hold. They all run like champs (on factory and re-loads) untill they need something.

    More $ don't always = more better. Fancier? Yes. Better? Depends on your definitiion.

    I've shot some REALLY expensive custom stuff that I'd be a tad reluctent to trust my life with.
    Nice to look at, tight as a drum, uber-gucci and all that stuff? Yep, it should be for that money.

    But gimme an old, well worn 'shake-rattle-n-roll' when the fight starts though, anyday. And I can't see, nor could not care less, what name is stamped on it when it goes *bang*.

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