So who handles the "direct support facility"? Army or Civies?
Sounds like outsourcing at it's worst. Indians from india repairing american weapons? thats pretty lame.
Keep in mind this isn't just an American mission. We have forces here from (in no particular order) Germany, Poland, France, New Zealand, Portugal, Egypt, Canada, The Netherlands, Korea, and probably some others I can't think of at the moment. If I were in a firefight, I'd be very glad to see the very tough Korean soldiers, as an example, come rolling over the hill to help me out.
By the way, our pistols were designed in Italy (Beretta) or Germany/Switzerland (SIG-Sauer) and our M16s, M249s and M240Bs are made by FN, a Belgian company. Outsourcing, what?
Mike some of the best post I have seen regarding the M9, have wondered how exactly they where holding up
Spot on about the carry of "hand" guns in a war front, I played tunnel rat on a few occasions and had the old Victory model 38 spl or the 45 acp, didn't feel real comfortable with either
I love the Beretta M9 but if I was in combat I would take the 1911A1 any day. That might be because I was an MP back in the early 70's. I have friends I served with still in service (Old Farts) and most tell me that they don't care what the troops use and some tell me that they can bring back AK's to the states. I find that hard to believe. It was almost impossible to bring one back from Nam.
Surprised I haven't seen "knock-down power" mentioned yet.
I'm with whoever said marksmanship should be emphasized. If someone's taking any number of steps after taking a hit from any bullet, you didn't hit him very well, and there's probably nothing a caliber increase of about .07 is going to do about it.
But belive it or not as the last two SWAT members are going through the doors the SOB who was down for the count picks himself up and unloads his clip into their backs. Sadly to say the two members didn't make it. Though from what my instructer said after that it was instated that you double tap your suspect and handcuff them after words.
The funny thing is that the regulations for carrying the M1911A1 is still in affect for the carrying of the Beretta 92FS. While guarding military installations MP's are forbidden from carrying with a round chambered. So the DA isn't an advantage at all.
You don't appreciate many of the DOD civilians lack of "people skills", Mike? Gotta love their attitudes. Clinton needs a serious ass kicking for that.
I carried the Beretta 92FC as a LEO and bought my issue weapon when I retired. Have had it for 19 years and it's as reliable today as it was on the day I received it new in 1988. But, in a face to face confrontation I'd have to say I'd rather have one of my 1911's. Since my retirement, my agency has switched to HK .45s. But as far as quality goes, my old Beretta (and my more recent purchase, a 96) are outstanding. And neither has ever failed to go "Bang" when called upon.
The DoD civvies here are mainly okay. It's just some of the contractors who lack social skills. I swear that KBR only recruits Americans from ghettos, with all the "attitude" contained therein.You don't appreciate many of the DOD civilians lack of "people skills", Mike? Gotta love their attitudes. Clinton needs a serious ass kicking for that.
Why don't we just dump the M16 platform and use the AK 47 like most of the rest of the world. It can be fired by both sexes, only problem is the NATO/1ClintUN nation doesn't like In my experience they hold up better but Kennedy's whiz kids didn't develope it. Simple solution DA/SA .45 like the 4506only problem is women need a smaller sidearm and we have to have NATO compatible ammo.
The AK design is reliable, but that is about all it has going for it. The M4 is lighter, far more ergonomic, more accurate, has vastly better sights, is much easier to attach optics to, usually has a better trigger, offers faster and simpler mag changes, has an adjustable stock, and is much easier to control in rapid or auto fire.
It is not only women who need a smaller pistol, but the many small-handed men in uniform, and also pilots and CID types (both of whom are often issued the M11/SIG P228). Size is a big weakness of the M9 - the thing is huge.
People on the internet often poke fun at the idea of ammo interchange among NATO countries, but I have personally issued British 5.56mm ammo to American soldiers when we didn't have access to American ammo. If we didn't have the Brit ammo, we would not have had ammo at all. So there is something to be said for standardizing on ammo.
I have seen lots and lots of soldiers shoot pistols, and my general opinion is that most of the supposed "stopping power" failures that soldiers complain about are actually simply failures to shoot accurately. A .45 won't improve that. Hell, back when 1911s were issued, everyone complained that they were inaccurate and kicked like mules. It's not true, of course, but it demonstrates that most soldiers really have no idea how to use a pistol - regardless of its caliber.
I had a good talk a few months back with a Marine friend of my son's. He has been knee deep in the shit over there. He told me that they were able to use what they can get or find as a side arm since they weren't issued to them. I found that hard to believe they could use anything but when asked if they were needed he said no in the battlefield but since the new battlefield is now urban and house to house it can come in very handy when you have a full size M-16. He has seen side arms save the lives of other Marines in the backup mode and he would like to see them issued only in urban settings. Rather have the extra m16 ammo in a firefight. They all seem to want the 1911 and were able to get them but no one had ammo for them. He also told me he was able to bring home an AK. Right then I thought this guy was full of it and did not believe a word he said. Then I dropped my son off at his place out in the country and I heard automatic gun fire. My son said you need to see his AK and he was telling the truth. I said what did you do mail it and he said he bought it home in his duffel bag stripped down with no problem. Back in Vietnam it was hard as hell to even get a part home. I worked customs for a short time at a air force base and that was the number one thing we looked for. That's another subject for another day.
I don't hang with any Marines over here, but none of the Army infantry guys I know (over 600 in my battalion) are clamoring for 1911s. Of course, Army guys are issued M4s, which are far handier in urban fighting than the Marines' M16A2s and A4s. All that said, I do carry an M9 to back up my M4 when I go outside the wire!
If he brought an AK home in his duffle bag, he violated several sections of the UCMJ. The mountain of paperwork required just to send an old black powder rifle home from Afghanistan is positively daunting. There's no way in hell bringing home an AK in duffle bag was remotely legal.
Just with this thread alone.. I'm glad I found this place.. 1st thing.. Mike, (and the rest of you guys) God bless you for serving!
2nd.. I'm the newb that started the thread about the 92F a friend has. I believe he was Army (he saw some stuff in the Gulf War).. He was also a range instructor ? (title) at Ft Benning I think.. Heckuva good guy.. Sold me my car.. As good as car-salesmen go... This one, I like. He's a good egg. Anyway, That 92F he has he states is identical to his M9 (I've been learning up on berettas). I'm still just not sold on that 9mm round though, regardless of 15+1 capacity in that gun... M&P? XD? Ah, I guess I just have to get to the range and find out which fits me and which I fit it.
Sorry didn't mean to butt in, I meant to just say hello and man some great reading here for a newb like me.
My first hand gun was a 92FS. I still don't have anything larger. I'm not military and I have no combat experience. My friends all have 40's or 45's, or even Desert Eagles and seem convinved that my 9mm just isn't enough.
I don't know what happens when bullets hit bodies, but I can't imagine a 9mm being inadequate to drop someone. A hard headed, physically fit or drugged up perpetrator who can survive a few rounds from a 9mm will probably survive the same attack from a 45 unless its a perfect headshot. A 9mm with +P hollow point rounds seems pretty adequate to give somebody real pause.
The one thing I will definitely agree on is the 92FS is a physically huge pistol.