Surprised I haven't seen "knock-down power" mentioned yet.

I'm with whoever said marksmanship should be emphasized. If someone's taking any number of steps after taking a hit from any bullet, you didn't hit him very well, and there's probably nothing a caliber increase of about .07 is going to do about it.


-B

Originally Posted by BAC

Surprised I haven't seen "knock-down power" mentioned yet.
-B

Mike has access to one of the only guns with true "knock down power".

Can you sa MA-DUCE.

Originally Posted by BAC

Surprised I haven't seen "knock-down power" mentioned yet.

I'm with whoever said marksmanship should be emphasized. If someone's taking any number of steps after taking a hit from any bullet, you didn't hit him very well, and there's probably nothing a caliber increase of about .07 is going to do about it.


-B

Here's one for you all. One of my instructers (Highly trained man who travels world wide to train SWAT, Feds, ect) told us all a story on double tapping. From what he said there was a bank robery and as the team went up the stairs the doors swing open and here comes a thug in a mask swing a pistale and not watching what's going on. Well the first one on the line grabs the guy and lets two rounds fly through his chest and drops the SOB.
But belive it or not as the last two SWAT members are going through the doors the SOB who was down for the count picks himself up and unloads his clip into their backs. Sadly to say the two members didn't make it. Though from what my instructer said after that it was instated that you double tap your suspect and handcuff them after words.

The funny thing is that the regulations for carrying the M1911A1 is still in affect for the carrying of the Beretta 92FS. While guarding military installations MP's are forbidden from carrying with a round chambered. So the DA isn't an advantage at all.

You don't appreciate many of the DOD civilians lack of "people skills", Mike? Gotta love their attitudes. Clinton needs a serious ass kicking for that.

I carried the Beretta 92FC as a LEO and bought my issue weapon when I retired. Have had it for 19 years and it's as reliable today as it was on the day I received it new in 1988. But, in a face to face confrontation I'd have to say I'd rather have one of my 1911's. Since my retirement, my agency has switched to HK .45s. But as far as quality goes, my old Beretta (and my more recent purchase, a 96) are outstanding. And neither has ever failed to go "Bang" when called upon.

Originally Posted by Revolver

The funny thing is that the regulations for carrying the M1911A1 is still in affect for the carrying of the Beretta 92FS. While guarding military installations MP's are forbidden from carrying with a round chambered. So the DA isn't an advantage at all.

I'm not sure about that, at least on all posts. My father commands post security in North America. I'll check with him and get the story. The private security at Bragg all carry shotguns across their backs, so I am not sure an MP with a loaded chamber is a big deal.

You don't appreciate many of the DOD civilians lack of "people skills", Mike? Gotta love their attitudes. Clinton needs a serious ass kicking for that.

The DoD civvies here are mainly okay. It's just some of the contractors who lack social skills. I swear that KBR only recruits Americans from ghettos, with all the "attitude" contained therein.

Why don't we just dump the M16 platform and use the AK 47 like most of the rest of the world. It can be fired by both sexes, only problem is the NATO/1ClintUN nation doesn't like In my experience they hold up better but Kennedy's whiz kids didn't develope it. Simple solution DA/SA .45 like the 4506only problem is women need a smaller sidearm and we have to have NATO compatible ammo.

Originally Posted by Magicmanmb

Why don't we just dump the M16 platform and use the AK 47 like most of the rest of the world. It can be fired by both sexes, only problem is the NATO/1ClintUN nation doesn't like In my experience they hold up better but Kennedy's whiz kids didn't develope it. Simple solution DA/SA .45 like the 4506only problem is women need a smaller sidearm and we have to have NATO compatible ammo.

The rest of the world doesn't use the AK47. Only third world countries issue it now. The major powers using the AK platform (mainly Russia) issue the AK74. Here in Afghanistan, I have seen M16A2s, M16A4s, M4s, Steyr AUGs, FAMAS, HK G36s, and SA85s. The Poles are using a souped up AK of some kind. The older AK variants are only seen in the hands of third-rate powers like Egypt, Romania, and Bulgaria - and fourth-rate armies like Afghanistan's.

The AK design is reliable, but that is about all it has going for it. The M4 is lighter, far more ergonomic, more accurate, has vastly better sights, is much easier to attach optics to, usually has a better trigger, offers faster and simpler mag changes, has an adjustable stock, and is much easier to control in rapid or auto fire.

It is not only women who need a smaller pistol, but the many small-handed men in uniform, and also pilots and CID types (both of whom are often issued the M11/SIG P228). Size is a big weakness of the M9 - the thing is huge.

People on the internet often poke fun at the idea of ammo interchange among NATO countries, but I have personally issued British 5.56mm ammo to American soldiers when we didn't have access to American ammo. If we didn't have the Brit ammo, we would not have had ammo at all. So there is something to be said for standardizing on ammo.

I have seen lots and lots of soldiers shoot pistols, and my general opinion is that most of the supposed "stopping power" failures that soldiers complain about are actually simply failures to shoot accurately. A .45 won't improve that. Hell, back when 1911s were issued, everyone complained that they were inaccurate and kicked like mules. It's not true, of course, but it demonstrates that most soldiers really have no idea how to use a pistol - regardless of its caliber.

Originally Posted by Magicmanmb

Why don't we just dump the M16 platform and use the AK 47 like most of the rest of the world.

not trying to hijack the thread, but your post reminded me of a video clip I stumbled on to a while back. I thought I'd share... Derka! Derka!

I had a good talk a few months back with a Marine friend of my son's. He has been knee deep in the shit over there. He told me that they were able to use what they can get or find as a side arm since they weren't issued to them. I found that hard to believe they could use anything but when asked if they were needed he said no in the battlefield but since the new battlefield is now urban and house to house it can come in very handy when you have a full size M-16. He has seen side arms save the lives of other Marines in the backup mode and he would like to see them issued only in urban settings. Rather have the extra m16 ammo in a firefight. They all seem to want the 1911 and were able to get them but no one had ammo for them. He also told me he was able to bring home an AK. Right then I thought this guy was full of it and did not believe a word he said. Then I dropped my son off at his place out in the country and I heard automatic gun fire. My son said you need to see his AK and he was telling the truth. I said what did you do mail it and he said he bought it home in his duffel bag stripped down with no problem. Back in Vietnam it was hard as hell to even get a part home. I worked customs for a short time at a air force base and that was the number one thing we looked for. That's another subject for another day.

I don't hang with any Marines over here, but none of the Army infantry guys I know (over 600 in my battalion) are clamoring for 1911s. Of course, Army guys are issued M4s, which are far handier in urban fighting than the Marines' M16A2s and A4s. All that said, I do carry an M9 to back up my M4 when I go outside the wire!

If he brought an AK home in his duffle bag, he violated several sections of the UCMJ. The mountain of paperwork required just to send an old black powder rifle home from Afghanistan is positively daunting. There's no way in hell bringing home an AK in duffle bag was remotely legal.

Originally Posted by Revolver

The funny thing is that the regulations for carrying the M1911A1 is still in affect for the carrying of the Beretta 92FS. While guarding military installations MP's are forbidden from carrying with a round chambered. So the DA isn't an advantage at all.

You don't appreciate many of the DOD civilians lack of "people skills", Mike? Gotta love their attitudes. Clinton needs a serious ass kicking for that.

Before retiring from the Air Force we always carried a round chambered. Can''t speak to Army policy

Just with this thread alone.. I'm glad I found this place.. 1st thing.. Mike, (and the rest of you guys) God bless you for serving!

2nd.. I'm the newb that started the thread about the 92F a friend has. I believe he was Army (he saw some stuff in the Gulf War).. He was also a range instructor ? (title) at Ft Benning I think.. Heckuva good guy.. Sold me my car.. As good as car-salesmen go... This one, I like. He's a good egg. Anyway, That 92F he has he states is identical to his M9 (I've been learning up on berettas). I'm still just not sold on that 9mm round though, regardless of 15+1 capacity in that gun... M&P? XD? Ah, I guess I just have to get to the range and find out which fits me and which I fit it.

Sorry didn't mean to butt in, I meant to just say hello and man some great reading here for a newb like me.

My first hand gun was a 92FS. I still don't have anything larger. I'm not military and I have no combat experience. My friends all have 40's or 45's, or even Desert Eagles and seem convinved that my 9mm just isn't enough.

I don't know what happens when bullets hit bodies, but I can't imagine a 9mm being inadequate to drop someone. A hard headed, physically fit or drugged up perpetrator who can survive a few rounds from a 9mm will probably survive the same attack from a 45 unless its a perfect headshot. A 9mm with +P hollow point rounds seems pretty adequate to give somebody real pause.

The one thing I will definitely agree on is the 92FS is a physically huge pistol.

Modern 9mm JHPs are perfectly adequate for personal defense. The Beretta is an extremely reliable pistol. Anyone with both is well armed.

All pistols are weak weapons. .40s and .45s are slightly more potent than 9mm, but that does not cancel out the 9mm's advantages in lighter recoil (and thus faster shooting) and considerably less expensive practice ammo.

Yeah all of those factors actually appeal to me... The 92 isn't a cannon (easier recoil for the newbie behind the grip), less expensive ammo to make holes in paper at the range, reliable, easy to field-strip.. probably easy to maintain (which I plan on keeping it immaculate as possible)... won't be a side-arm for carry except on rare occasion.. Sounds like a great 1st pistol, and sure isn't hard on the eyes.

The more I read up on the M&P's, it seems like the magazine reviewers really dig those as well as the XD's.. I did read some criticisms about XD's being a little more prone to rust issues which makes me lean toward the S&W M&P's, though I imagine it's all pretty much who you ask.. I did see an HS2000 (pre-springfield XD) that had 20k+ rounds through it and looked fabulous for it's age.. rails were crisp anyway (to my novice eyes).

just wanted to say thank's to mike barham for doing a service to
our country.i know you guys dont here this as much as you should
i was in the air force during peace time.again thank you for your
service to your country.

Originally Posted by dawgsm

just wanted to say thank's to mike barham for doing a service to
our country.i know you guys dont here this as much as you should
i was in the air force during peace time.again thank you for your
service to your country.

Just read back through this thread and getting at least just a little taste of perspective of what it's like over there.. about all I can say is one big mega Ditto to the above..

The word "thanks" needs a stronger variant in the English language.. and spread that around to the other guys as well.

Originally Posted by Mike Barham

The main problem is the lousy magazines floating around in theater, especially for the M9. The Check-Mate mags suck, but it is very hard to get anything else. I had to have my wife send me some OEM Beretta mags for my personal pistol.

Count me in for at least 2 (of the 15 round clips, right?). I can order them tomorrow if you can just let me know how to get them to you. Since wifey set you up already, if you don't need them, give them to one of your guys that do. Unless I don't know any better and they are not available stateside. I just got the idea from your post, but haven't really checked to see if they are available. If there are any of the aftermarket ones that are good and are cheaper/available, tell me which ones and I could probably spring for a few of those for your bro's.

Let me know.

Well, thanks very much for all the good wishes!

Wyatt, your offer is very much appreciated, but we are blessedly on our way out of this place in just a few short weeks. You can buy the beer when we get home, though!

Oh, and I have an update on M9 durability. We had our first M9 go down about ten days ago. The spring for the disassembly button broke. The weapon still functioned fine in terms of firing, but it couldn't be taken apart for cleaning. We ordered a replacement spring (it's not part of our bench stock) and had the weapon up and running again in short order. This has been our only recorded problem with the M9 battalion-wide. Say what you will about the Beretta, but the pistol does work.

That's making me feel better about reconsidering my friends 92FS Inox again.. Assuming that it's the same quality/design... I figure for a great shape 92 with finger-wrap grips, two carry holsters, a box of speer ammo and a few mags, $550 isn't too terribly bad.. After closer inspection of the bore and slide and condition.. I'm all over it I think.

I only wish it was a .40, but I guess ammo at the range will be cheaper and with 15 + 1, any home intruders would be met with hopefully-well-placed double or triple taps instead of one big bang.

And since it has no case, I found a very solid case that'll make a great pistol case if and when I ever need it.

So I'm full circle all the way back around to the original pistol I was considering when I joined the forum.. He's not listing it as it's basically just mine when I can justify the expenditure. I sure miss disposable income.

Good to hear you're almost out of there. Get home safe Mike.

If I were in AZ, I'd buy the first round.

Originally Posted by babs

So I'm full circle all the way back around to the original pistol I was considering when I joined the forum.. He's not listing it as it's basically just mine when I can justify the expenditure. I sure miss disposable income.

Good to hear you're almost out of there. Get home safe Mike.

If I were in AZ, I'd buy the first round.

I think you should go for it. I'm ordering an Inox 92fs from budsgunshop this week.

If I were in AZ, I'd buy a round as well Thanks from me as well for your service to our country Mike, it's greatly appreciated. Maybe I can buy you a round some day as I am considering applying for jobs in Arizona when I graduate this year. I'm sick of these gun laws here and I wouldn't mind the warm weather as I am a motorcycle guy as well

-Jeff-

Come to Arizona! You can ride your bike pretty much year-round in AZ, as long as you don't live in the mountains. And you can open carry while you ride.

babs, 9mm is perfectly good for defense with modern JHP ammo. .40 is hardly the Hammer of Thor, regardless of what mall ninjas on the internet may claim.